Firing Phasers At Warp.

[Tenacity]

During TOS we saw phasers on multiple occasions being fired while ships were at warp, on-screen during the series set in the 24th century Starfleet vessels apparently could no longer fire phasers at warp. Why?

A theory. Many fans have suggested that the warp dirve use in TNG and later set series was different than the drive used during TOS. One possibility is that it is "trans-warp drive" and in common usage it is simplified to "warp drive." There is certainly a different warp scale in use, What if the newer warp drive doesn't permit phaser fire while at warp?

Starfleet knowingly exchanged being able to use phasers at warp for whatever the advantages the new warp drive provided. Only torpedoes would be used at warp.

What 'cha think?

 

[Unicron]

I seem to recall some sources - possibly the TNG TM - suggesting that phasers weren't useful at warp because they'd travel at the speed of light, and the ship would be essentially going faster than that via the warp field. I'd have to check. Torpedoes would be useful because they're traveling at a different speed.

Some episodes of TOS did show this of course, and it's tempting to see it as more of an Early Installment Weirdness element in ways. The main episode that springs to mind is "The Ultimate Computer."

 

[XCV330]

it would seem like, using Trek Physics, the phaser or any other kind of beam weapon might work within the warp bubble, if the two ships are in a merged bubble, close enough to attack one another, or in the case of TMP, attacking the asteroid in the worm hole (which didn't work not because phasers did not work at Warp but but because of a power routing issue.

Hitting a "stationary" (nothing being stationary in the universe, but moving much more slowly) object while flying many times the speed of light seems like nearly a targeting impossibility, considering how often the ships missed while firing below warp speed, so doesn't seem like it would be an issue anyway.

 

[Sgt_G]

It's not just Phasers that change depending on the plot. Scotty once said they couldn't use the Photons with the shields up, but could fire Phasers. Never heard that said before or since.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well then we take into Darkness with the vengeance fireing at warp. Phaser bolts.
Now sidestepping the new kelvin warp tunnels ..
And in voyager with the nebula class chasing the Prometheus using phases at warp.
Just a writer's discretion .. If it calls for it in the script

 

[Tenacity]

Well then we take into Darkness with the vengeance fireing at warp. Phaser bolts.

While a separate universe, it was TOS era, when phasers at warp were common.

And in voyager with the nebula class chasing the Prometheus using phases at warp.

Yes, but this was a single episode, an isolated exception to the rule.

Scotty once said they couldn't use the Photons with the shields up

Episode?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Well then we take into Darkness with the vengeance fireing at warp. Phaser bolts.
Now sidestepping the new kelvin warp tunnels ..
And in voyager with the nebula class chasing the Prometheus using phases at warp.
Just a writer's discretion .. If it calls for it in the script

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Everytime I see phasers used at Warp Speeds, the ships are so close that their Warp Field bubbles have obviously merged.

The ships are so close to your opponents, if I get out in a space suit, I can literally throw a wrench and hit the enemies ship with it or zip line to it assuming both ships hold steady enough to not mess about and break the zip line.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Ideally, phasers would be limited to warp one and would be useless at any faster velocity, IMO. But since there's onscreen evidence that phasers can do whatever a story demands them to do, well...


Maybe the difference between phasers and photon torpedoes at warp is akin to the difference of a scalpel and a sledgehammer.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Everytime I see phasers used at Warp Speeds, the ships are so close that their Warp Field bubbles have obviously merged.

*Nods*

Either that, or they have minimal relative velocity (this was mentioned at least one re: Transporters IIRC).

As is often the case, the TOS examples are the oddest IMO, where at least once there is an exchange of fire at least between one platform at warp and one that is stationary/at impulse.

 

[Henoch]

Just maybe, the phasers are some sort of particle beam (i.e tiny bits of matter), and when fired while the ship is at warp, they too maintain the warp speed. When fired at sublight speeds, they are at sublight speed. Goes alone with the same theories for torpedoes some have suggested.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Ideally, phasers would be limited to warp one and would be useless at any faster velocity, IMO. But since there's onscreen evidence that phasers can do whatever a story demands them to do, well...


Maybe the difference between phasers and photon torpedoes at warp is akin to the difference of a scalpel and a sledgehammer.

Phasers have been quoted to operate at the speed of light.

And while you're at "Warp", the space within the "Warp Bubble" is not moving at all, it's the "Warp Bubble" that is moving at FTL speeds.

As is often the case, the TOS examples are the oddest IMO, where at least once there is an exchange of fire at least between one platform at warp and one that is stationary/at impulse.

Can you find a video clip of that scene?

I'm wondering if you fire a Phaser at a tangentially moving vessel that is at Warp speed while you're at a relative stand still in normal space, and they intentionally "Not Dodge" the shot, could you calculate it so that they "run" into the path of your phaser shot and have their shields take damage?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We could also postulate that TNG era phasers were different from TOS era phasers. Like, maybe the use of a certain particle for TNG phasers made them more energy efficient.

Not to hijack the thread, but there's also a difference in the dematerialization effect that some of us might upon occasion want to account for. That would imply that new phasers were introduced by TWOK, which in turn might suggest that it was actually the phaser redesign in TMP that may have something to do with it, i.e. that channeling phasers through the warp drive ironically made them non-warp friendly (with a similar upgrade of higher-yield particle spectrum applied to hand units).

Or something.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But since there's onscreen evidence that phasers can do whatever a story demands them to do...

Phasers have been quoted to operate at the speed of light.

That's why I said there's onscreen evidence.

And while you're at "Warp", the space within the "Warp Bubble" is not moving at all, it's the "Warp Bubble" that is moving at FTL speeds.

That goes to the "how warp drive works" debate. Some have argued that "warp bubbles" don't extend much farther beyond the hull of a ship, while others have said that ships don't move at FTL velocities at all, but instead use subspace as a shortcut through normal space to get around the otherwise still valid speed-of-light limit. Then there are other ideas. But whatever works for people.

 

[Mytran]

If the deflectors can sweep ahead of the ship at FTL speeds, why shouldn't the phasers be able to as well?

 

[valkyrie013]

Oh, and the numerous times the Nx Enterprise fired phasers at warp.
Example that comes to mind was the fight with the Cell Ships. Both were firing at each other at warp.

 

[Tenacity]

Oh, and the numerous times the Nx Enterprise fired phasers at warp.

That would be prior to the 24th century.

if they switched to a new type of phaser that had advantages over the old, but couldn't be fired at warp, wouldn't it make sense to also keep the older phasers too, so they could still have something that could be used at warp?

Modern warships carry a variety of weapons to be used under different situations.

 

[valkyrie013]

True, battleship has multiple types, 16in main gun, 5 inch closer guns, 40mm flak cannons etc.
I agree.. Star Trek only having more or less 2 weapons types of phaser or torpedo seems limiting.

 

[Lord Other]

There's no way you can get around this simple fact: IF the Federation Starfleet prohibited or limited phaser firing operations to speeds below c, when the are weapons are demonstrably capable of doing so, then they needlessly and recklessly put the lives of those (fictional) crews at risk. Consider- if you have the ability to engage and disengage a target at speed, effectively rendering them stationary, you have a much easier time of hitting that target than they will have trying to hit you. For example- engagement zones will be easier for you if your target is plodding about at a much slower speed which would allow you to use longer range strikes (photon or phaser presumably) over a longer time frame than your target (which may have the same weaponry, but are all handicapped by going less than c) who will have to target and track a faster moving object and will have less to time to react and respond in kind, if at all possible. This is evident in numerous pieces of footage from WWII aircraft combat operations, especially against ships at sea. Or to be even more succinct, as Scotty put it best, "Maneuvre? Aye. We can wallow like a garbage scow against a warp-driven starship."

Strategically and tactically limiting phasers to less than c operations provides no useful benefit, regardless of any other concern or technical consideration.

Finally, I provide this example of starship combat from TNG itself, from "The Wounded" as evidence that Starfleet in the TNG era does make use of phasers in FTL combat operations. The Phoenix arms both photon torpedoes AND phasers to deal with the opposing Cardassian warship. While the Phoenix ultimately only makes use of the photons, having the phasers at ready in FTL combat would seem to indicate their ability to used in such theatres.

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[Timo]

The basic premise here seems to be a bit faulty.

True, there were no instances of phasers fired at warp in TNG. But that is the only Trek spinoff, apart from the TOS movies (and now DSC and PIC that haven't yet had much opportunity to do stuff, period), where phasers were not fired at warp. And in all the other spinoffs, phasers were fired at warp without comment - except for ENT, where Archer is astounded to hear that Reed has difficulty firing the phasers at warp, and Reed is apologetic about not having worked out an unforeseen problem quite yet, and nevertheless eventually manages to overcome that.

Phasers are supposed to work fine at warp. Nobody on screen ever suggests otherwise. And they are seen working fine at warp. It's just that they are generally fired only at very short apparent ranges - but that is true of sublight firing, too. Either the weapons obey the inverse square law (even though there is no real reason they would need to), or then there is some other concrete reason for only firing when close (such as with the naval cannon of yore).

Why there initially was a lull in warp phasering in TNG is probably for out-universe reasons: drawing both the warp streaks and the phaser beams would have been a chore. With better and cheaper VFX techniques, VOY already was able to portray complex warp phaserfights, with Kazon ships dodging and weaving around the hero ship at warp and firing this way and that.

Why TNG never went for firing warp phasers without showing it happening is less obvious. Heaven knows they did things without showing often enough. See e.g. the Phoenix vs. Cardassians fight above.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sgt_G]

Scotty once said they couldn't use the Photons with the shields up, but could fire Phasers.

Episode?

Found it, but I had it backwards:

A Taste of Armageddon

SCOTT: We can't fire full phasers with our screens up, and we can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us. Of course I could treat them to a few dozen photon torpedoes.​