Finished season one

[Albertese]

Another factor in Spock not going for Leila six years earlier is that he was already spoken for. While "This Side of Paradise" is a first season episode, and "Amok Time" is a second season show, in stardate order, "This Side of Paradise" is the very next adventure after "Amok Time." So, with his "less than a marriage, more than a betrothal" situation with T'Pring out of the way, he no doubt feels more open to such dalliances. Plus he gets a chance to get that rest of the pesky pon farr hormone out of his system...

--Alex

Then why did Spock get involved with her in the first place? Knowing that he was betrothed, he should have told her beforehand.

Hmm.... Good question. Of course the real reason is that the writers had not yet thought up "Amok Time" when "The Paradise Syndrome" was made. And the stardate relationship was purely accidental. But in-universe? It's been a while since I saw "The Paradise Syndrome" but my impression had always been that Leila was super into Spock but he never actually went for it... like the whole Nurse Chapel angle. And now that he's under the influence of the spores, he can have the relationship with her that he wanted to but never did. Maybe I got that wrong... now I want to rewatch the episode.

UPDATE--- I just rewatched the episode. Pretty good one! But, yeah, I am 100% sure that six years earlier, Leila told Spock she loved him, but he made no reply to her. She says several times in the episode that Spock didn't show her any feelings at all. Leila's feelings were unrequited until the spores changed Spock's temperament. They probably had a working professional relationship and she developed feelings for him but he shut her down, even though, as the episode implies, he may have been more interested than he let on, but he felt obligated to reject her. The "Amok Time" angle is just a fun coincidence since it falls on stardate 3372.7 and "This Side of Paradise" is on stardate 3417.3. And since I prefer my Star Trek in stardate continuity, it just works out well that way and provides another layer to the character's possible motivations. But I would reinforce that the writer's of the show had no such connection in mind when they made them.

Btw, I'm totally fine with people naming their favourites. What's everyone's opinion of TNG and ENT? Last year I watched a few episodes of TNG but found the characters to be very bland. It's the only series I'm not too sure about watching.

Regarding these two shows, I would agree that the characters in TNG are mostly pretty bland, but not always. Picard and Data and eventually Worf actually get a whole lot of development. And what it lacks in character chemistry, it makes up for in excellent stories. Especially in Seasons 3 - 5. For me, that's where TNG shines. Season 1 gets a lot of crap, and deservedly so, but it has some highlights. And Season two gets a lot of hate, but I think it's less deserved. "The Measure of a Man" is, I think, one of Trek's all around best shows, and it's from S2. I feel the quality of seasons 6 and 7 slid down hill until the finale, which was pretty good.

As for Enterprise... It has it's moments. There are a few episodes I genuinely enjoyed, like "Shuttlepod One" and the one where they find the Old West people. The show has some fun fanwank to try to appeal to TOS fans here and there, especially in S4 (which seems to actually be mostly this). But over all, the show feels like forgettable wallpaper to me. But don't write it off, just from my opinion, it certainly has it's fans. And I'm a big fan of Doug Drexler's art direction, which is mostly what I'm looking at when I watch it.

I will say that if you do watch Enterprise and really enjoy it, then drink a lot of booze before settling in for the finale show. It was a pretty terrible send-off and the show deserved better. And I'm saying that as a person who didn't really like the show that much.

--Alex

 

[Forbin]

Remember when I said that I just couldn't get into TOS? Well I watched a few of the movies and they made me want to try it again. I realize that the first batch of episodes I watched, I had the mindset of comparing it to the modern shows. For the second half of the season, I decided to pretend that all the other shows and movies didn't exist. It became more enjoyable once I did that.

I really liked:

The Naked Time
Balance Of Terror (Sarek! Kind of)
The Galileo Seven
Tomorrow Is Yesterday
This Side Of Paradise (my favourite)
The Devil In The Dark (the Horta is cool)
The City On The Edge Of Forever (could not believe that was Joan Collins!)

I'm glad I gave it a second chance

Welcome to the fold.
You've pretty much selected my favorite episodes too.

 

[Kor]

Well, how much do Vulcans truly value monogamy when it comes to their arranged marriages?

Remember what T'Pring said to Spock in Amok Time: "But if you did not free me, it would be the same. For you would be gone, and I would have your name and your property, and Stonn would still be there."

That sounds pretty conniving, selfish, and unfaithful to me, but Spock assessed her reasoning as "Logical, flawlessly logical."



The Vulcan philosophy of logic apparently isn't what humans think it should be (not that it necessarily has to).

Kor

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

@Albertese, that makes sense with Amok Time being a season 2 episode. Sometimes writers begin with certain facts and then later on something else happens that makes the audience question the story. It gets confusing. Thanks for the insight on the other shows.

 

[Albertese]

Well, how much do Vulcans truly value monogamy when it comes to their arranged marriages?

....

Kor

Maybe so. On the other hand, Spock was raised by a human woman (a W.A.S.P. to boot...at least that's my impression of Amanda). Spock has a familiarity with the Judeo-Christian Bible, which I had always assumed was through his mother's influence (though that is just my supposition, I don't think we're ever told so.) This guy has a pretty complex background, really. I tend to think that Spock is his own person, like anyone else, and isn't simply the cookie-cutter replicant of his society's majority-held opinions.

In any case, "This Side of Paradise" clearly indicates that he didn't get involved with Leila on Earth, whatever his reasons.

@Albertese, that makes sense with Amok Time being a season 2 episode. Sometimes writers begin with certain facts and then later on something else happens that makes the audience question the story. It gets confusing. Thanks for the insight on the other shows.

My pleasure.

--Alex

 

[Poltargyst]

TNG was pretty mediocre for me. It feels bland, sterile, wimpy compared to TOS.

ENT gets dumped on a lot. I liked the characters and the actors, and I think they had a lot of potential, but I often felt disappointed as they failed to realize that potential. There were things that annoyed me about ENT, and yet for all that, I found myself enjoying it more than TNG.

 

[Warped9]

DC Fontana wrote the novel Vulcan's Glory in which Spock acknowledges his bethrothal to T'Pring and yet still has a love affair with another female Vulcan.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Well, how much do Vulcans truly value monogamy when it comes to their arranged marriages?

Remember what T'Pring said to Spock in Amok Time: "But if you did not free me, it would be the same. For you would be gone, and I would have your name and your property, and Stonn would still be there."

That sounds pretty conniving, selfish, and unfaithful to me, but Spock assessed her reasoning as "Logical, flawlessly logical."



The Vulcan philosophy of logic apparently isn't what humans think it should be (not that it necessarily has to).

Kor

Star Trek had a habit of vesting feminism and "liberation" in alien women, while Earth women were more likely to toe the line.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Now, as you're getting into the first half of season two, you're about to see the best that TOS has to offer, particularly with these five great episodes:

Amok Time
Metamorphosis
Mirror, Mirror
The Doomsday Machine
Journey To Babel

And some very strong stories that rate just below great:

Who Mourns for Adonais?
I, Mudd
Friday's Child

After the first half of season two, the series begins it slow decent towards cancellation, which accelerates significantly in season three.

Oh, and by the way, you'll love DS9--the second best Trek series after the original.

Maybe instead of setting expectations, we should just let the poster enjoy the show and make their own judgements on what is enjoyable and what is not.

I think its ok to let her know what are favorites are. There are clearly superior episodes and letting her know the great ones will actually increase anticipation to see certain episodes.

And, of course, if she hadn't heard that from me, she would've never been able to see recommendations or reviews anywhere else....

 

[Vger23]

Maybe instead of setting expectations, we should just let the poster enjoy the show and make their own judgements on what is enjoyable and what is not.

I think its ok to let her know what are favorites are. There are clearly superior episodes and letting her know the great ones will actually increase anticipation to see certain episodes.

And, of course, if she hadn't heard that from me, she would've never been able to see recommendations or reviews anywhere else....

My only irritation is that every time I've introduced a movie or episode of Star Trek to someone, it holds true that if they've heard nothing about it to sway their opinion and give them preconcieved notions, they generally enjoy those episodes and movies that are considered "bad" by the masses.

The flip side is also true, that if they've heard the mass opinion that xyz movie or episode sucks, they generally think it sucks too.

I always find that fascinating.

But it has taught me to not set people's expectations beforehand if they are just discovering a certain element of the franchise.

I'd rather someone experience it for themselves, rather than being closed off to an entire movie or season of this great franchise just because of popular mass-opinion that "season 3 blows" or "Nemesis sucks" or whatever other groupthinky unoriginal prevailing opinion might be out there.

 

[Vger23]

Oh, and by the way, you'll love DS9--the second best Trek series after the original.

Totally agree, and it's nice to see someone else say it. DS9 is underrated by most.

DS9 is the on,y spin-off that truly challenges TOS for greatness in my opinion. It was the on,y series that dared to be different in both format and philosophy. All the others are cheap knock-offs of TNG, which itself was derivative of TOS.

Not to say I don't like them...they are all good...but TOS and DS9 are above the rest.

It's a shame DS9 was so polarizing and, as stated here, underrated.

 

[golddragon71]

DC Fontana wrote the novel Vulcan's Glory in which Spock acknowledges his bethrothal to T'Pring and yet still has a love affair with another female Vulcan.

Her name was T'Pris and she was his fellow Science officer. Their relationship made me wonder....would Ponn Farr have hit Spock so hard had she lbeen around as his constant "release valve"?

 

[Kor]

^ Since we're on the topic of the novels, I think in the novel-verse, it's established that Vulcans are capable of "doing it" whenever they want, but it does not actually result in procreation unless they are in the Ponn Farr condition. So the biological drive would still be there at that time in order to perpetuate the species.

Kor

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

Oh, and by the way, you'll love DS9--the second best Trek series after the original.

Respectfully, that is just opinion stated as fact.

DS9 has its problems to me. DS9 content asks the viewer to care about the made-up religious ways, & plight of the Bajorans. DS9 requires a appitite/tolerance for a lot of Ferengi presence and antics. Thats a turnoff for a lot of people.

These elements are presented on a space station whose designs are meant to be alien- however is it really a visually appealing setting for the casual viewer? Or is it-- just plain ugly?

At the outset, several of the characters seemed not happy to be at DS9. Why would the viewer, by extension, want to be "there" either? If one is looking for natural chemestry amongst the cast, ala TOS, TNG-- you may find the relationships overall more scripted, than natural on DS9. Its not suprising to learn that this cast was not close, unlike a lot of TOS & TNG castmembers. It actually translates.

The lead actor, Avery Brooks, makes highly unusual acting choices (thats a kind way of putting it); Nana Visitor, I think we can all objectively say, has a tendency to overact (her fake laugh...wow). Those are essentially -your 2 lead actors! It is generally agreed that Siddig El Fadil's character, even by the actors' admission- was not likeable for a time. Terry Farrell's strengths as an actress can be debated. The likeability and appeal of the cast is debateable.

While consistently strong scripts & fx carried the show as it moved along- the show also attains levels of nerdiness and self-involved complexity that isn't going to appeal to everyone. Or a lot of people. To state that its the 2nd best Star Trek series- is highly debateable. Why rank?

DS9 is a well made show. Slick looking production. Well written. But it definitely has its problems- and to be blunt, is why it struggled to get better ratings and why it will never be on Bluray. It just never succeeded in areas necessary to attain a legacy that TOS & TNG did no matter how its fans try to beat its drum.


Anyhow, enjoy your TOS experience! TOS is an extremely entertaining television show.

 

[Pauln6]

Oh, and by the way, you'll love DS9--the second best Trek series after the original.

Respectfully, that is just opinion stated as fact.

DS9 has its problems to me. DS9 content asks the viewer to care about the made-up religious ways, & plight of the Bajorans. DS9 requires a appitite/tolerance for a lot of Ferengi presence and antics. Thats a turnoff for a lot of people.

These elements are presented on a space station whose designs are meant to be alien- however is it really a visually appealing setting for the casual viewer? Or is it-- just plain ugly?

At the outset, several of the characters seemed not happy to be at DS9. Why would the viewer, by extension, want to be "there" either? If one is looking for natural chemestry amongst the cast, ala TOS, TNG-- you may find the relationships overall more scripted, than natural on DS9. Its not suprising to learn that this cast was not close, unlike a lot of TOS & TNG castmembers. It actually translates.

The lead actor, Avery Brooks, makes highly unusual acting choices (thats a kind way of putting it); Nana Visitor, I think we can all objectively say, has a tendency to overact (her fake laugh...wow). Those are essentially -your 2 lead actors! It is generally agreed that Siddig El Fadil's character, even by the actors' admission- was not likeable for a time. Terry Farrell's strengths as an actress can be debated. The likeability and appeal of the cast is debateable.

While consistently strong scripts & fx carried the show as it moved along- the show also attains levels of nerdiness and self-involved complexity that isn't going to appeal to everyone. Or a lot of people. To state that its the 2nd best Star Trek series- is highly debateable. Why rank?

DS9 is a well made show. Slick looking production. Well written. But it definitely has its problems- and to be blunt, is why it struggled to get better ratings and why it will never be on Bluray. It just never succeeded in areas necessary to attain a legacy that TOS & TNG did no matter how its fans try to beat its drum.


Anyhow, enjoy your TOS experience! TOS is an extremely entertaining television show.

Hmm yes, opinions do vary. I never really took any of what you say as being negative elements of DS9. I just prefer space exploration shows. Bashir was not meant to be dislikeable, although it may be the 'class war' we had going on with O'Brien for a while probably spoke more to a British audience than an international one. His character was on an arc, like many of the other characters. Neelix was far more annoying because the writers there spent too many years only showing us his public facade. He needed a Guinan to confide in to round him out. He had no arc. Bashir and O'Brien gradually do that for each other.

Plus many folks feel that a show where the heroes are all likeable could be very dull. Take a look at the Avengers movies. Cap may be my favourite but many others regard him as very dull. Would the franchise be so successful if all the others were like him?

 

[CrazyMatt]

One reason I rate DS9 so highly is it is the one series that (yes, if you must, in my opinion) best replicates the overall "tenor" of TOS. It has that TOS "grittiness" that TNG (which OBTW I like very much and rate just below DS9) often lacks and Voyager seems to purposely avoid. It gets a bad rap for being "too dark" and "too edgy," both of which TOS episodes often had had in large quantity.

I leave Enterprise out of this conversation as I didn't hardly watch it--Voyager basically turned me off so much I stopped watching it after a handful of episodes, and it soured me on any new Trek to follow.

 

[Poltargyst]

What I can say is that I felt DS9 started out pretty mediocre in its first season. The first season of DS9 reminded me of a typical TNG season---pretty mediocre. But with each passing season, DS9 got better until by its final season, I was on the edge of my seat. I couldn't wait until the next episode came on. Yes, strong writing, and a complexity and grittiness you just don't get from the all-too sterile TNG.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

About "The Deadly Years", since Kirk, Spock, and Scotty were unfit for duty, wouldn't it have made more sense to continue down the chain of command (whoever is after Scotty) than for Commodore Stocker to act as captain? I mean, the guy didn't know what to do when the Romulans started attacking.

 

[Melakon]

About "The Deadly Years", since Kirk, Spock, and Scotty were unfit for duty, wouldn't it have made more sense to continue down the chain of command (whoever is after Scotty) than for Commodore Stocker to act as captain? I mean, the guy didn't know what to do when the Romulans started attacking.

Sulu should have been given command, he had combat experience. They just wanted Stocker to quiver in his boots so that Kirk could save the day.

 

[Pauln6]

About "The Deadly Years", since Kirk, Spock, and Scotty were unfit for duty, wouldn't it have made more sense to continue down the chain of command (whoever is after Scotty) than for Commodore Stocker to act as captain? I mean, the guy didn't know what to do when the Romulans started attacking.

Sulu should have been given command, he had combat experience. They just wanted Stocker to quiver in his boots so that Kirk could save the day.

Ha ha - yeah and don't forget they'll do anything to avoid letting Uhura take command.