Finally Watching Discovery - Was I Supoosed to Hate This?

[fireproof78]

I really don't see how Voq and Worf have anything in common? Voq didn't even know he was serving on a Starfleet ship, he had the actual memories of a Starfleet officer. Worf was the realization of the Organians prediction from "Errand of Mercy".

I mean, I agree with this, especially with Worf being that fulfilment. But, I don't see Manchester arguing the opposite here

The weight and the significance of Worf's appearance was further augmented for me by TUC, as well as TOS episodes. Each addition to the lore gives more weight to the meaning. Otherwise, as I posited earlier, there is no need for further Star Trek.

Usually when one serves in a war, it is a defining event in their life. Kirk and Spock would've both served in the Klingon war and there isn't a hint of anything like that happening. Kirk dealt with Klingons seven times in TOS, did he not lose anyone he was close to, have any confrontations with them?

The Klingon war wasn't a minor skirmish. They pushed to Earth's doorstep and had the Federation ready to commit genocide.

Well, we all know how Spock likes to comment on his history and past events...

Also, where would Kirk be at at this stage in his career?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Supposed to hate it? Only if you like STAR TREK... Whatever this is, (being completely un-related to the show I have watched for 53 years-) this STD is Poison. (They think so too, else,.. why all the changes? Why the second full season re-shoot, in as many seasons?!!

Yeah, well TNG going from season 1 to season 2 had:

• Cast changes
• Changes in Troi's abilities
• The abandonment of the "great threat to the Federation" storyline (granted, that eventually morphed into the Borg, but didn't start that way).
• Differences in Worf's hair and makeup
• Changes to the uniforms (i.e., the abandonment of some of the types of uniforms, such as Troi's space cheeleader outfit and male skirts)
• Less of the "Enterprise is carrying entire families" aspect (although that never went away, just toned down).
  
• A slightly different filmed look

And then for season 3 we had:

• A reconsideration of the season 2 recasting
• More changes to the uniforms (added padding).

So considering that they made those changes to TNG, that must mean TNG isn't Star Trek.

 

[Amaris]

Usually when one serves in a war, it is a defining event in their life. Kirk and Spock would've both served in the Klingon war and there isn't a hint of anything like that happening. Kirk dealt with Klingons seven times in TOS, did he not lose anyone he was close to, have any confrontations with them?

The Klingon war wasn't a minor skirmish. They pushed to Earth's doorstep and had the Federation ready to commit genocide.

This. Exactly this. A minor skirmish? I could have accepted that, because I'm sure small exchanges of fire happened all of the time, especially along borders, but a war where the Klingons were ready to destroy Earth, and Starfleet's response was "nuke Q'onos off the face of the map" would have massive ramifications. You don't hide that kind of thing, either. It's not like every other member in the Federation was like "hey, guys, let's just pretend this never happened, okay?"

 

[XCV330]

There was no luxury because they made it that way. We didn't need a Klingon war arc, we didn't need to head into the mirror universe, all in the first season. We also didn't need long, tracking shots of Klingons speaking slowly to one another, in full Klingon, dragging out scenes more than necessary.

So another case of "Why didn't the people who made that TV show instead make the TV show I wanted them to make"

 

[Amaris]

So another case of "Why didn't the people who made that TV show instead make the TV show I wanted them to make"

What an odd thing to say when I've already mentioned the things I enjoyed about the show. Do you like everything introduced in Discovery? No quibble? No problems? Love it all? 10 out of 10 stars? Perfect Trek? If not, then maybe your comment is a bit on the reductive side of things?

 

[XCV330]

What an odd thing to say when I've already mentioned the things I enjoyed about the show. Do you like everything introduced in Discovery? No quibble? No problems? Love it all? 10 out of 10 stars? Perfect Trek? If not, then maybe your comment is a bit on the reductive side of things?

Could be. I'd retract it, but i already had it up there. So I will just apologize.

 

[Amaris]

Could be. I'd retract it, but i already had it up there. So I will just apologize.

That's perfectly alright. It's Star Trek, we're all going to get heated, myself included.

 

[Hey Missy]

The impression I always got from the last 50 years was that the Federation had had minor conflicts with the Klingons over border disputes and "mine's bigger than yours" arguments. Nothing like a full-scale war with millions of casualties that brings the Federation to its knees worse than the Romulan and Dominion wars combined, especially not only 10 years before TOS. Nothing in canon or even fanon entertained the idea.

 

[Lord Garth]

I mean, I agree with this, especially with Worf being that fulfilment. But, I don't see Manchester arguing the opposite here

The weight and the significance of Worf's appearance was further augmented for me by TUC, as well as TOS episodes. Each addition to the lore gives more weight to the meaning. Otherwise, as I posited earlier, there is no need for further Star Trek.


Well, we all know how Spock likes to comment on his history and past events...

Also, where would Kirk be at at this stage in his career?

Exactly. And when did Kirk ever say, "I never fought the Klingons before!"? Never. Let me repeat that: Never.

This whole thing is bullshit.

Kor said he always hoped to meet Kirk in battle. So Kirk had some sort of reputation in the Empire for Kor to take notice. Otherwise, why would they care who the Hell he is?

And how many crew does Kirk lose in TOS? It doesn't publicly phase him because people dying is part of the job. Like it or not. In fact, they spell it out at the beginning of the first episode of Star Trek ever. Some people cope with stress better than others. In any situation.

Finally, there's Kirk's resigned expression at the beginning of "Errand of Mercy". "War. We didn't want it, but now we've got it." Sounds somewhat hardened. No they don't go into detail because they didn't think they'd need to spell everything out. But people today seem to need everything spelled out. In BIG CAPITAL LETTERS LIKE THIS.

Now we have people saying "Oh! We can't have a war because XYZ!" They're reading into what's not there. Kirk says absolutely no way, one way or the other anything about his past experiences with the Klingons. So they assume "Kirk said nothing so nothing must've happened!"

But Spock does say in TUC that there was 70 years of unremitting hostility. So tensions were there. Conflict was there. And if it was a one-year war, who the Hell knows? We didn't see the Enterprise-E in the thick of fighting the war with the Dominion, even though Insurrection came out right in the middle of DS9's seventh season.

 

[Hey Missy]

We must give the enemy credit. To launch an attack against Starfleet Headquarters. Even my people never attempted that.

*shows a fleet of Klingon ships poised to attack Earth*

So, you could say it's a retcon.

 

[BillJ]

Also, where would Kirk be at at this stage in his career?

Kirk would likely be a Lieutenant.

The rub is "Errand of Mercy" (and the quote @Hey Missy just posted above). There is no mention on Kirk or Spock's part about the atrocities that the Klingons had just committed eight years earlier. No mention of civilians slaughtered, no mention of a near invasion of Earth. If they had that kind of evidence of Klingon brutality, I doubt they would've omitted it.

 

[BillJ]

And if it was a one-year war, who the Hell knows?

Do you honestly think we would forget in eight years, if the Soviets had pushed all the way to our border with an intent to invade us?

 

[Lord Garth]

Do you honestly think we would forget in eight years, if the Soviets had pushed all the way to our border with an intent to invade us?

I don't think Kirk would forget anything.

Naturally, though, he wouldn't mention Discovery in "Errand of Mercy" because it hadn't been written yet. It's one of those things that happens with prequels in general.

One time, Rudy Guiliani didn't mention 9/11, which was a glaring ommission when talking about terrorist attacks not being a problem before Obama came into office -- and 9/11 is obviously not something someone would forget about -- but then he tried to cover it up by saying he spoke in "abbreviated language". So it happens in Real Life too.

 

[BillJ]

Naturally, though, he wouldn't mention Discovery in "Errand of Mercy" because it hadn't been written yet. It's one of those things that happens with prequels in general.

Which is why I just treat it as something that exists in its own timeline. That's not a comment on its quality, just the inability of the creative staff to stay true to the idea that this is a prequel to TOS.

 

[RandyS]

For me, the fuss has been because I find the show and its characters to be quite joyless and dour.

Hopefully season 2 picks up more.

Kor

Agreed, although now that I've actually seen the show thanks to the DVD set, I would count Tilly as an exception. Personally, I though she was silly. In a good way mind you, but silly just the same.

But then, what else should we expect from a cadet?

 

[BillJ]

Agreed, although now that I've actually seen the show thanks to the DVD set, I would count Tilly as an exception. Personally, I though she was silly. In a good way mind you, but silly just the same.

I think there were a lot of good pieces in the show that the writer's squandered because they seemed to be more interested in spackling the supposed cracks in TOS than telling an inventive sci-fi action-adventure.

I hope it changes in season two.

 

[Hey Missy]

Of course, in TNG's "The Wounded" you have them going around like the war with the Cardassians only just finished prior to 2367 but was literally never mentioned or shown before.
Then again, DS9 (may have) moved it back to the 2350s.

 

[XCV330]

Kirk would likely be a Lieutenant.

The rub is "Errand of Mercy" (and the quote @Hey Missy just posted above). There is no mention on Kirk or Spock's part about the atrocities that the Klingons had just committed eight years earlier. No mention of civilians slaughtered, no mention of a near invasion of Earth. If they had that kind of evidence of Klingon brutality, I doubt they would've omitted it.

Child Kirk lived through Kodos. Klingon invasion was just more bad stuff on a difficult life

 

[BillJ]

Child Kirk lived through Kodos. Klingon invasion was just more bad stuff on a difficult life

Of course, but it would seem relevant to the events of "Errand of Mercy". Much like Kodos/Tarsus IV was relevant to the events of "The Conscience of the King".

 

[XCV330]

Of course, but it would seem relevant to the events of "Errand of Mercy". Much like Kodos/Tarsus IV was relevant to the events of "The Conscience of the King".

true. And Errand of Mercy is one of my favorite TOS episodes. I keep feeling like they're going to have to deal with it at some point