Ferengi post-DS9

[Oddish]

As I said it could have been handled better.
We have to account for the limitations of TV storytelling though, they couldn't very well show us decades of social development.
And I do appriciate that for once they had a culture that changed and wasn't static.

A culture where sudden change might have worked was the Cardassians. In part because the Cardies are such a contradiction anyway: no other species balances reason and regard for family with brutality that would horrify a Klingon. And in part because they had just suffered an utter atrocity at the hands of the Dominion, arguably even more horrific than the occupation.

Sexual equality on Ferenginar could have been made to work, albeit with different circumstances.
* Maybe make a big deal of Ishka's gown. There could be a flourishing black market for female clothing on Ferenginar.
* Have Zek be concerned about Pel's antics because of the equality movement spreading underground.
* Have Ishka's financial empire really freak Brunt out. If society is at a tipping point, a successful female could push it over the edge.
In other words, make it a leap forward supported by previous incidents. Instead of "one minute, Ferenginar is a stable male dominated society, ten minutes later it's an equal one."

 

[1001001]

They went from a failed story thread in TNG to a proper culture in DS9, one of the most fleshed out ones in Star Trek.
And it's awesome how we saw them develop over the seasons of DS9

Yeah, but where were the energy whips?

 

[Orphalesion]

Yeah, but where were the energy whips?

Moogie and the Grand Nagus requisitioned them all for...private use.

 

[1001001]

Moogie and the Grand Nagus requisitioned them all for...private use.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They could have shown it make the first step toward change instead of having it all happen overnight.

It's a more interesting question what happened on Cardassia after the war. They're a people used to authoritarianism and don't see a problem with it. So I would imagine them slipping back into it, possibly even with Garak. But depending on the authoritarian, maybe a less militaristic version of authoritarianism. Or possibly go in the other direction of 'Cardassia for Cardassians'.

If it is Garak, we know of him he doesn't have a problem with authoritarianism but he did have a problem with the cruelty toward Bajorans, so he might take an approach of being a kinder, gentler dictator, who uses the Federation to help rebuild but keeps them out of influencing their politics and then covers up the actual state of the recovery, advertising that they're all fully recovered immediately.

 

[Oddish]

If you remember "Chain of Command", the Cardies were a peaceful people with a rich spiritual life, probably not unlike the Bajorans. Then some calamity hit, and people were starving in the streets. The military takeover ended this, and society was rebuilt very different. Now, a second calamity has occured, courtesy of the Dominion. So who knows how society will rebuild this time?

 

[Sci]

Cultures don't magically transform like that, though. They evolve over time, and through painstaking effort. Riker said it best in "Angel One", what was going on there was that certain men were already seeking more equality, the out-worlders were just a rallying point for them to gather around. It wasn't like "Ishka plays hide the salami with Zek and BAM! Instant equality."

It's certainly true that cultures evolve over time. But I think if you look at the Ferengi episodes of DS9, the implication is that there has been an underground Ferengi feminist movement for a long time, and that Ishka is just the member of that movement we've seen the most of. I mean, c'mon -- you can't build a secret financial empire like she did if there's not a fairly extensive network of people willing to participate along the way.

It's a more interesting question what happened on Cardassia after the war. They're a people used to authoritarianism and don't see a problem with it. So I would imagine them slipping back into it, possibly even with Garak. But depending on the authoritarian, maybe a less militaristic version of authoritarianism. Or possibly go in the other direction of 'Cardassia for Cardassians'.

If it is Garak, we know of him he doesn't have a problem with authoritarianism but he did have a problem with the cruelty toward Bajorans, so he might take an approach of being a kinder, gentler dictator, who uses the Federation to help rebuild but keeps them out of influencing their politics and then covers up the actual state of the recovery, advertising that they're all fully recovered immediately.

Well, first off, it's really important to remember that the Cardassians are not a people who are just used to authoritarianism and don't see a problem with it. DS9 made it very clear that there was a large Cardassian dissident movement during the era when the Central Command and Obsidian Order ruled, with major nexuses of members amongst university students and professors and even within the Detapa Council itself. Less than six months after the Obsidian Order collapsed, the dissident movement gained enough political power to overthrow the Central Command and put the Detapa Council in charge of the entire Cardassian Union, so the Central Command regime obviously didn't have enough political capital to stay in power without the use of a brutal secret police force. The rule of the civilian government only ended when Dukat led the Dominion to invade Cardassian space and overthrow the civilian government. So the idea that there wasn't already a significant anti-authoritarian movement on Cardassia is just erroneous.

The novels have depicted post-war Cardassia as being a society whose people have mostly come to realize that the suffering they endured from the Dominion was the direct result of their prior fascism -- of the culture of authoritarianism and militarism that was inculcated in them during the Central Command/Obsidian Order dictatorship and then reinforced during the Dukat/Dominion dictatorship. Garak has been formost among them, and helped establish a democratic Cardassian government, led by a democratically-elected Castellan and a democratically-elected Cardassian Assembly.

Spoiler: Other Details

The first post-war Castellan was Alon Ghemor, son of Tekeny Ghemor. Garak himself was elected Castellan not quite ten years after the war, as part of a successful effort to beat back a rising fascist counter-reaction to Cardassian democracy. He continued to serve as Castellan as late as 2387, supporting the publishing of a report on Cardassian military atrocities on Bajor and supporting bringing charges against Cardassian war criminals.

If you remember "Chain of Command", the Cardies were a peaceful people with a rich spiritual life, probably not unlike the Bajorans. Then some calamity hit, and people were starving in the streets. The military takeover ended this, and society was rebuilt very different. Now, a second calamity has occured, courtesy of the Dominion. So who knows how society will rebuild this time?

Exactly. The Cardassians were brought to the brink of biological extinction and over the cliff of complete societal collapse. Like the Germans after World War II, that's the sort of thing that forces a society to reckon with itself about what kind of culture it has been and what kind of culture it's going to be.

Also, side note: DS9 S6 established that Cardassians and Bajorans are capable of reproducing without medical assistance or prior planning. That strongly implies that they're either the same biological species or closely-related species (assuming the resulting offspring is infertile). I do wonder if the pre-calamity Cardassians are the descendants of ancient Bajorans who settled on Cardassia but were then forgotten by both sides.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

All that though isn't consistent with what else we know about Cardassian culture. Their highest literature depicts generations of Cardassians being dutiful to the state, and their pulp entertainment depicts anyone accused of a crime always being guilty. The dissident movement exists but is mostly in the shadows. The idea the majority was really anti-authoritarian all along feels like a reach. And I especially don't buy Garak being in favor of democracy. Constitutional monarchy is much more along the lines of what we know about him from the show.

That feels like just as rapid a cultural change as the Ferengi one. At the very least you'd expect them to elect someone who is a "Strong leader" with nationalist leanings.

 

[Orphalesion]

A culture where sudden change might have worked was the Cardassians. In part because the Cardies are such a contradiction anyway: no other species balances reason and regard for family with brutality that would horrify a Klingon. And in part because they had just suffered an utter atrocity at the hands of the Dominion, arguably even more horrific than the occupation.

Sexual equality on Ferenginar could have been made to work, albeit with different circumstances.
* Maybe make a big deal of Ishka's gown. There could be a flourishing black market for female clothing on Ferenginar.
* Have Zek be concerned about Pel's antics because of the equality movement spreading underground.
* Have Ishka's financial empire really freak Brunt out. If society is at a tipping point, a successful female could push it over the edge.
In other words, make it a leap forward supported by previous incidents. Instead of "one minute, Ferenginar is a stable male dominated society, ten minutes later it's an equal one."

Again, yes I agree that it could have been handled better. I think it was a bit of a result of the Ferengi episodes possibly not being as planned out as the rest of the series' arc.

And tbh my mind filled in quite a few of the blanks with what you basically mention here.

All that though isn't consistent with what else we know about Cardassian culture. Their highest literature depicts generations of Cardassians being dutiful to the state, and their pulp entertainment depicts anyone accused of a crime always being guilty. The dissident movement exists but is mostly in the shadows. The idea the majority was really anti-authoritarian all along feels like a reach. And I especially don't buy Garak being in favor of democracy. Constitutional monarchy is much more along the lines of what we know about him from the show.

That feels like just as rapid a cultural change as the Ferengi one. At the very least you'd expect them to elect someone who is a "Strong leader" with nationalist leanings.

But it's also true that state-sanctioned art and literature in real life fascist/authoritarian states usually is of the "everything the government says is good, let's all follow and sacrifice for our leaders" variety.
And it's also true for all real life fascist/authoritarian regimes that they are usually full of people who'd very much prefer a different style of government but are too scared to rise up. Once the dictators or dear leaders are toppled at least attempts at democracy followed.
If we assume there was some Federation relief effort on the Cardassian worlds post Dominon War then that would have just have stabilized the process and strenghtened any tendencies towards a more liberal government.
The last "strong leader" led them into destruction at the hands of the Dominion, why would they want a new one right after that?

 

[Sci]

All that though isn't consistent with what else we know about Cardassian culture.

We literally saw the Cardassians overthrow a military dictatorship and replace it with civilian rule during the run of the show.

Is it a break with most of Cardassian history and the dominant cultural system? Yes. It is also a motivated break. If it is an inconsistency -- which I don't think it is, because, again, the show made it clear that there was a major dissident movement on Cardassia -- then it was a motivated inconsistency, a deliberate choice on the part of the Cardassians to reject a culture that had brought them to the brink of extinction.

It's also consistent with the canon. Remember Garak's final scene?

From "What You Leave Behind, Part II:"

BASHIR: Eight hundred million dead.
GARAK: And casualty reports still coming in. Well, aren't you going to congratulate me, Doctor? My exile is now officially over. I've returned home. Or rather, to what's left of it.
BASHIR: Listen, I know that this must seem bleak
GARAK: Some may say that we've gotten just what we deserved. After all, we're not entirely innocent, are we? And I'm not just speaking of the Bajoran occupation. No, our whole history is one of arrogant aggression. We've collaborated with the Dominion, betrayed the entire Alpha Quadrant. Oh, no, no. There's no doubt about it. We're guilty as charged.
BASHIR: You and I both know that the Cardassians are a strong people. They'll survive. Cardassia will survive.
GARAK: Please, Doctor. Spare me your insufferable Federation optimism. Of course it will survive, but as not the Cardassia I knew.

"Not as the Cardassia I knew." The canon made it clear: Cardassia was going to change. It had to; the old ways had brought it nothing but death.

Their highest literature depicts generations of Cardassians being dutiful to the state, and their pulp entertainment depicts anyone accused of a crime always being guilty.

Their highest literature under the military dictatorship and the censorship of the Obsidian Order. Not a very representative sample of what Cardassians really think.

The dissident movement exists but is mostly in the shadows.

The dissident movement came out of the shadows once the Obsidian Order was gone and gained enough power to overthrow the military dictatorship.

The idea the majority was really anti-authoritarian all along feels like a reach.

Why? That's what life is like in most authoritarian states. Hell, it's what it's like in the authoritarian state called the United States of America.

And I especially don't buy Garak being in favor of democracy.

You don't think a man can change? If being sent into exile by your own father, being coerced into torturing your friends by said father only to see him spectacularly fail, watching your home planet succumb to foreign subjugation in the name of making it "strong" again, and then watching your world and its people nearly be annihilated by the people who promised them greatness -- if that's not enough to make someone change, what do you think can motivate someone to change?

In any event, the world's foremost expert on Garak, the actor who played him, Andrew J. Robinson, disagrees with you. He was the one who set the ball rolling on Garak becoming a Cardassian democrat in his novel A Stitch in Time, which is essentially the autobiography of Elim Garak as told to Dr. Bashir in a letter.

That feels like just as rapid a cultural change as the Ferengi one.

Strongly disagree there. DS9 spent years showing that Cardassia was a deeply divided culture with a military dictatorship just barely holding on and then losing power within six months of losing their secret police. This kind of thing was bubbling under the surface of Cardassian culture for years, same way the Revolutions of 1989 were bubbling under the surface of the Soviet bloc nations for years.

At the very least you'd expect them to elect someone who is a "Strong leader" with nationalist leanings.

First off, again, the dictatorship just led them all to ruin. They know that. Why would they vote for the people who got half of their loved ones killed?

And what makes you think the Federation would allow that if they did? Cardassia may be establishing a democracy, but they're also under Federation occupation. There are, of course, parallels from real history; the United States didn't just let West Germany and Japan elect strongman nationalists after World War II.

But it's also true that state-sanctioned art and literature in real life fascist/authoritarian states usually is of the "everything the government says is good, let's all follow and sacrifice for our leaders" variety.

And it's also true for all real life fascist/authoritarian regimes that they are usually full of people who'd very much prefer a different style of government but are too scared to rise up. Once the dictators or dear leaders are toppled at least attempts at democracy followed.

If we assume there was some Federation relief effort on the Cardassian worlds post Dominon War then that would have just have stabilized the process and strenghtened any tendencies towards a more liberal government.
The last "strong leader" led them into destruction at the hands of the Dominion, why would they want a new one right after that?

Exactly.

 

[Orphalesion]

And what makes you think the Federation would allow that if they did? Cardassia may be establishing a democracy, but they're also under Federation occupation. There are, of course, parallels from real history; the United States didn't just let West Germany and Japan elect strongman nationalists after World War II.

It would be interesting to see whether 80 years on (or even by the time of Picard) Cardassians would view Dukat and the Bajoran Occupation similarly to how modern Germans view Hitler and the holocaust, as basically their greatest shame and the darkest chapter in their national history.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

We literally saw the Cardassians overthrow a military dictatorship and replace it with civilian rule during the run of the show.

Is it a break with most of Cardassian history and the dominant cultural system? Yes. It is also a motivated break. If it is an inconsistency -- which I don't think it is, because, again, the show made it clear that there was a major dissident movement on Cardassia -- then it was a motivated inconsistency, a deliberate choice on the part of the Cardassians to reject a culture that had brought them to the brink of extinction.

It's also consistent with the canon. Remember Garak's final scene?

From "What You Leave Behind, Part II:"

BASHIR: Eight hundred million dead.
GARAK: And casualty reports still coming in. Well, aren't you going to congratulate me, Doctor? My exile is now officially over. I've returned home. Or rather, to what's left of it.
BASHIR: Listen, I know that this must seem bleak
GARAK: Some may say that we've gotten just what we deserved. After all, we're not entirely innocent, are we? And I'm not just speaking of the Bajoran occupation. No, our whole history is one of arrogant aggression. We've collaborated with the Dominion, betrayed the entire Alpha Quadrant. Oh, no, no. There's no doubt about it. We're guilty as charged.
BASHIR: You and I both know that the Cardassians are a strong people. They'll survive. Cardassia will survive.
GARAK: Please, Doctor. Spare me your insufferable Federation optimism. Of course it will survive, but as not the Cardassia I knew.

"Not as the Cardassia I knew." The canon made it clear: Cardassia was going to change. It had to; the old ways had brought it nothing but death.



Their highest literature under the military dictatorship and the censorship of the Obsidian Order. Not a very representative sample of what Cardassians really think.



The dissident movement came out of the shadows once the Obsidian Order was gone and gained enough power to overthrow the military dictatorship.



Why? That's what life is like in most authoritarian states. Hell, it's what it's like in the authoritarian state called the United States of America.



You don't think a man can change? If being sent into exile by your own father, being coerced into torturing your friends by said father only to see him spectacularly fail, watching your home planet succumb to foreign subjugation in the name of making it "strong" again, and then watching your world and its people nearly be annihilated by the people who promised them greatness -- if that's not enough to make someone change, what do you think can motivate someone to change?

In any event, the world's foremost expert on Garak, the actor who played him, Andrew J. Robinson, disagrees with you. He was the one who set the ball rolling on Garak becoming a Cardassian democrat in his novel A Stitch in Time, which is essentially the autobiography of Elim Garak as told to Dr. Bashir in a letter.



Strongly disagree there. DS9 spent years showing that Cardassia was a deeply divided culture with a military dictatorship just barely holding on and then losing power within six months of losing their secret police. This kind of thing was bubbling under the surface of Cardassian culture for years, same way the Revolutions of 1989 were bubbling under the surface of the Soviet bloc nations for years.



First off, again, the dictatorship just led them all to ruin. They know that. Why would they vote for the people who got half of their loved ones killed?

And what makes you think the Federation would allow that if they did? Cardassia may be establishing a democracy, but they're also under Federation occupation. There are, of course, parallels from real history; the United States didn't just let West Germany and Japan elect strongman nationalists after World War II.



Exactly.

If you did a poll, with guaranteed anonymity somehow so they felt safe, in Russia and China, do you think they'd really have negative attitudes toward strong authority and loyalty to the state? You see what happened in Russia when the USSR collapsed and it became a democracy. What reason do we think Cardassia would be different besides which universe they happen to reside in?

European countries post-WWII are different cases. Germany's Nazi government was new and brought to power by plurality motivated by fearmongering. They didn't have a generations long tradition of authoritarianism. And Japan took a much longer time for cultural change and still believe in following authority, just with a more friendly authority. Cardassians who don't believe in military dictatorship still believe in trust and loyalty to a strong authority to the same degree that modern Asian countries do or maybe more, and it would take generations to change that.

I suppose Garak could turn out to be that 'More friendly authority', but what's really stopping a Putin figure from stepping in the moment he's out of the picture, and do you really think the Federation would assertively stop that if it were the slightest bit diplomatically problematic? But I will concede, if Cardassia gets an economic boom like Japan before that happens, they're probably safe.

"First off, again, the dictatorship just led them all to ruin. They know that. Why would they vote for the people who got half of their loved ones killed?"

They tip their hat to the new constitution, take a bow to the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up their guitar and play, just like yesterday, then they get on their knees and pray...they won't get fooled again!

 

[Oddish]

It would be interesting to see whether 80 years on (or even by the time of Picard) Cardassians would view Dukat and the Bajoran Occupation similarly to how modern Germans view Hitler and the holocaust, as basically their greatest shame and the darkest chapter in their national history.

Or as we Americans regard slavery and manifest destiny, two pitch-black chapters in our own history. Chapters that are, in a sense, still being written.

 

[Sci]

It would be interesting to see whether 80 years on (or even by the time of Picard) Cardassians would view Dukat and the Bajoran Occupation similarly to how modern Germans view Hitler and the holocaust, as basically their greatest shame and the darkest chapter in their national history.

That's basically what the novels have gone with, yeah.

If you did a poll, with guaranteed anonymity somehow so they felt safe, in Russia and China, do you think they'd really have negative attitudes toward strong authority and loyalty to the state?

"Strong authority" and "loyalty to the state" are so ambiguous of terms as to be meaningless. But if you did an anonymous poll where the people knew they could safely express their opinions? Yes, you would find that people aren't all in for tyranny; more than likely the populace would break down into large segments -- some supportive of the current regime, some opposed to the current regime, and some looking for some sort of compromise.

You see what happened in Russia when the USSR collapsed and it became a democracy.

Yes -- an emerging oligarchic class deliberately impoverished the Russian people and were backed up by a so-called "democratic" President in Yeltsin, who had the Army shell the legitimately-elected Russian Parliament when it opposed his massive upwards redistribution of wealth, leading to the Russian people by the late 1990s largely associating the idea of capitalist democracy with widespread suffering, before that same oligarchic class got subsumed by a new autocrat able to temporarily portray himself as a savior of the people before the people started to realize he too was one of their oppressors. Since then, it's become clear that there's widespread discontent against Putin, with multiple major protest waves against him. Russia is a deeply divided society, and it is not at all reasonable to claim that they're all in for Putin.

What reason do we think Cardassia would be different besides which universe they happen to reside in?

The fact that they all know they almost went extinct because of the old system.

European countries post-WWII are different cases. Germany's Nazi government was new and brought to power by plurality motivated by fearmongering. They didn't have a generations long tradition of authoritarianism.

Of course they did. Nazism was built on the authoritarian foundations of Prussian culture. The Kaiser's regime was deeply anti-democratic -- they would openly brag about how the Kaiser must always retain the option of sending in some soldiers to shoot to death the entire Reichstag. The Weimar Republic fell precisely because the major conservative political factions were not dedicated to democracy. There was a very long tradition of German authoritarianism that the Nazis built on, and de-Nazification was a process that entailed a lot of deconstruction of Prussian influences.

And Japan took a much longer time for cultural change and still believe in following authority, just with a more friendly authority.

They are literally a liberal democracy with an active liberal and left-wing political base and civil society, and an anti-war movement so powerful that the decision to start building up the Japanese Self-Defense Forces again was hugely controversial. There is an authoritarian nationalist movement, that is true -- but it is just that, a movement, not the consensus. The Japanese as a nation are not by any reasonable standard authoritarian.

Cardassians who don't believe in military dictatorship still believe in trust and loyalty to a strong authority to the same degree that modern Asian countries do or maybe more, and it would take generations to change that.

"Trust and loyalty to a strong authority" is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. You are, at best, making an argument that Cardassia is unlikely to be as individualistic as America in real life; that is a fundamentally different argument than saying they wouldn't be a democracy.

I suppose Garak could turn out to be that 'More friendly authority', but what's really stopping a Putin figure from stepping in the moment he's out of the picture,

That's basically the plot of the novel The Crimson Shadow: a resurgent Cardassian nationalist movement comes into play, and Cardassia as a world has to choose between the old ways and the new.

and do you really think the Federation would assertively stop that if it were the slightest bit diplomatically problematic?

The Federation just finished fighting a terrible war because of Cardassian fascism. They're not gonna let Cardassia not have a democratic government firmly in place before they withdraw; they've already lost too many lives to Cardassian aggression.

But I will concede, if Cardassia gets an economic boom like Japan before that happens, they're probably safe.

Indeed, the Federation provided massive assistance to enable Cardassia to rebuild. Remember, all their major cities were in ruins, and over 800 million were dead. You don't recover from that without help.

"First off, again, the dictatorship just led them all to ruin. They know that. Why would they vote for the people who got half of their loved ones killed?"

They tip their hat to the new constitution, take a bow to the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up their guitar and play, just like yesterday, then they get on their knees and pray...they won't get fooled again!

You keep asserting that they could not or would not change, but you have yet to say why you imagine Cardassia, or Garak, to be so inflexible when the show made it clear that they were changing all the time.

 

[Orphalesion]

Also, side note: DS9 S6 established that Cardassians and Bajorans are capable of reproducing without medical assistance or prior planning. That strongly implies that they're either the same biological species or closely-related species (assuming the resulting offspring is infertile). I do wonder if the pre-calamity Cardassians are the descendants of ancient Bajorans who settled on Cardassia but were then forgotten by both sides.

I disagree here in Star Trek the various sapient species can often reproduce without much/any problems. For example, everything in canon indicates that Betazoids and Humans can reproduce without problems; Devinoni Ral was one of five children of a human and a half-Betazoid. Deanna was one of two children of a human and a full Betazoid. Lwaxana causally had a kid with a Tavnian, despite being rather advanced in years. Romulans can reproduce easily with both Klingons (I doubt they had the best medical care in that prison camp) and humans (I doubt Sela's father would have gone out of his way to make his concubine conceive)
And even disgregarding the many Cardassian-Bajoran hybrids, Cardassians can apparently reproduce with Kazon without even trying, Seska's baby being half-Kazon sure was a surprise to her.

Spoiler

Deanna and Will managed to have two children as well, and Thad was killed by a virus

Really it's a lot more rare that we hear any hint of mixed species couples needing medical help to conceive. If I'm not mistaken the only time is when Jadzia and Worf are preparing to have children.

I think the implication with the ancient Bajoran ship on Cardassia was more along the lines of ancient Bajoran interbreeding with ancient Cardassians after crash-landing there, like Homo Sapiens did with Neanderthals (and others) meaning that most/all modern Cardassians had a little bit of Bajoran DNA in themselves.

 

[Sci]

I disagree here in Star Trek the various sapient species can often reproduce without much/any problems. For example, everything in canon indicates that Betazoids and Humans can reproduce without problems; Devinoni Ral was one of five children of a human and a half-Betazoid. Deanna was one of two children of a human and a full Betazoid. Lwaxana causally had a kid with a Tavnian, despite being rather advanced in years. Romulans can reproduce easily with both Klingons (I doubt they had the best medical care in that prison camp) and humans (I doubt Sela's father would have gone out of his way to make his concubine conceive)
And even disgregarding the many Cardassian-Bajoran hybrids, Cardassians can apparently reproduce with Kazon without even trying, Seska's baby being half-Kazon sure was a surprise to her.

Fair point on the other unplanned pregnancies you cited -- I'd forgotten about those.

I confess that I really hate the Star Trek trope of unplanned, naturally-occurring pregnancies between separate species. It literalizes the "species as race" metaphor too much, and it completely defies how genetics works in real life. For that reason, my headcanon is that the couples have always received medical assistance unless there's direct canonical evidence refuting that assumption.

To that end: I don't see any reason to assume that Deanna and Kestra or

Spoiler

Thad and Kestra

were conceived without medical assistance. I don't remember enough about either "Muse" or "The Price" to recall if there's any reason to think Devinoni Ral or Barin Troi (the name the novel The Battle of Betazed gives to Lwaxana's and Jeyel's son) were conceived without medical assistance.

Romulans can reproduce easily with both Klingons (I doubt they had the best medical care in that prison camp)

I'm afraid I also don't remember the details of that episode. Are we sure there's no possibility the ranking officer of that camp might not have had enough clout left to arrange for medical assistance in conceiving?

and humans (I doubt Sela's father would have gone out of his way to make his concubine conceive)

I can 100% picture any man sick enough to hold a prisoner of war as his captive, unconsenting sex slave also being sick enough to go out of his way to subject her to an involuntary medical procedure to force her to carry his child.

Really it's a lot more rare that we hear any hint of mixed species couples needing medical help to conceive. If I'm not mistaken the only time is when Jadzia and Worf are preparing to have children.

There's Worf and Jadzia, but there's also the big one: Spock. ENT's "Demons"/"Terra Prime" two-parter established that it's impossible for Humans and Vulcans to conceive a child without medical intervention in the form of genetic modification of the parents' DNA. The techniques used by Terra Prime to create the baby Elizabeth failed even after the baby reached what appeared to be the infant stage of development. So Spock canonically had to have been the product of medical intervention.

I think the implication with the ancient Bajoran ship on Cardassia was more along the lines of ancient Bajoran interbreeding with ancient Cardassians after crash-landing there, like Homo Sapiens did with Neanderthals (and others) meaning that most/all modern Cardassians had a little bit of Bajoran DNA in themselves.

That's also possible! To be clear, I was postulating that the Bajorans and Cardassians may have had a common origin and split hundreds of thousands of years even before the Bajorans of the solar-sail era that Sisko recreated -- something so far back in both of their respective pre-histories that neither side retains any knowledge of the common origin. I postulated this both because of my dislike of the Star Trek trope of every species being interfertile with every other species, and because I felt that it adds a level of dramatic irony to the relationship between Cardassia and Bajor that I find satisfying.

 

[Orphalesion]

To that end: I don't see any reason to assume that Deanna and Kestra or

Spoiler

Thad and Kestra

were conceived without medical assistance. I don't remember enough about either "Muse" or "The Price" to recall if there's any reason to think Devinoni Ral or Barin Troi (the name the novel The Battle of Betazed gives to Lwaxana's and Jeyel's son) were conceived without medical assistance.

It's just the process can't be very challenging,d emanding or complicated if Mama Ral had five children. Even if we assume that Half-Betazed women are fertile longer than completely human ones with five children I have trouble seeing each conception being a taxing battle against species dna incompatibility. And the relatively high number of Betazoid/Non-Betazoid couples we hear about (most of which produced multiple children) just doesn't sound like it's particularly difficult for Betazoids to reproduce with aliens.
Similar things could be said for the numerous Klingon/Human couplings.I can't remember...did Torres and Paris need any help with having Miral?

I can 100% picture any man sick enough to hold a prisoner of war as his captive, unconsenting sex slave also being sick enough to go out of his way to subject her to an involuntary medical procedure to force her to carry his child.

Fair enough...but:

There's Worf and Jadzia, but there's also the big one: Spock. ENT's "Demons"/"Terra Prime" two-parter established that it's impossible for Humans and Vulcans to conceive a child without medical intervention in the form of genetic modification of the parents' DNA. The techniques used by Terra Prime to create the baby Elizabeth failed even after the baby reached what appeared to be the infant stage of development. So Spock canonically had to have been the product of medical intervention.

I remember that differently:
Phlox made it clear that the problem with Elizabeth was not the inter-species coupling, but the cloning process Terra Prime used to create her. In fact he said that there should be no reason for humans and Vulcans to not be able to reproduce.
To me that sounds like Spock could have been conceived without help. But don't worry I only remember that because I saw the episodes with Elizabeth a few weeks ago.
And, of course, if Vulcans can reproduce with humans without problems...then I think it's likely Romulans can as well.

That's also possible! To be clear, I was postulating that the Bajorans and Cardassians may have had a common origin and split hundreds of thousands of years even before the Bajorans of the solar-sail era that Sisko recreated -- something so far back in both of their respective pre-histories that neither side retains any knowledge of the common origin. I postulated this both because of my dislike of the Star Trek trope of every species being interfertile with every other species, and because I felt that it adds a level of dramatic irony to the relationship between Cardassia and Bajor that I find satisfying.

I can understand that.
To me ancient Bajoran astronauts mixing with Cardassians would already be dramatic irony enough.
And tbh the Star Trek idea of most species beign able to interbreed with each other never bothered me that much, since there is already a lot about Star Trek that's not stricticly realistic/scientific. So I just see it as part of the setting.

 

[Tim Thomason]

It's inadvisable today to give birth to a child without medical assistance. In the Future, the doctors just step in during the conception process, and this is probably even more routine given the widespread birth control referenced in DS9. Medicine is a superscience indistinguishable from magic by the 24th century. Mama Ral and Deanna Troi may have just strolled into a sickbay one morning, and with the wave of a blinking wand, were given a one-time fix that made their wombs compatible with human and/or Betazoid couplings.

When Phlox talks of Vulcan-Human hybridization, he isn't leaving the doctors out of the equation, just that there was a "flaw in the technique", which to me says they need a flawless (or less flawed) technique to create viable offspring.

 

[Tosk]

When Phlox talks of Vulcan-Human hybridization, he isn't leaving the doctors out of the equation, just that there was a "flaw in the technique", which to me says they need a flawless (or less flawed) technique to create viable offspring.

As mentioned above, the "flaw in the technique" was specifically in regards to the fact that Paxton used cloning to create the child. Trip's dialogue doesn't strongly indicate whether a Vulcan/Human pairing would require intervention or not.

 

[Orphalesion]

Mama Ral and Deanna Troi may have just strolled into a sickbay one morning, and with the wave of a blinking wand, were given a one-time fix that made their wombs compatible with human and/or Betazoid couplings.
.

My point was that it can't be a struggle if she managed to carry five children to term.

But if we go the strictly super scientific method then that wouldn't still really make anymore sense than them just being naturally compatible. Changing your womb doesn't solve the problem that "realistically" the DNA shouldn't be able to mix in a viable way.
The dna would likely have to be combined in a laboratory and then inserted into whichever partner it is that carries out the child.

And if we now say "oh their chromosomes are able to mix because they were all seeded by those bald aliens from the Chase" well then we might as well have them be able to reproduce without any blinky lights, except in cases with extreme adaptions that cause case-by-case incompatibilities without help(such when a Trill wants to reproduce with a Klingon)