Feminists upset over "Fat Princess" video game

[Hermiod]

The difference is down to the power imbalance. It's the difference between those who are invited to laugh along as equals, and those who have to shut up and put up with being everyone else's buttmonkey. You can't laugh together over the absurdity of violence with the guy who's being kicked repeatedly in the guts. You can't wink and giggle over fat jokes with the chick who's constantly hearing the message that being overweight makes her less valuable as a person.

I get the same thing, though. I'm well away from being physically perfect yet I'm bombarded with the same messages and downright insults in the media, and if it's not that then it's because I'm dumb, incompetent, worthless, lazy, I overreact to minor illnesses or any of the other million things that the media uses to belittle men. I just don't see what makes women and overweight people so special that they can't be criticised.

On the other hand, I think it's worth looking at where these criticisms are being posted. They're on feminist and body-positive blogs. These spaces are set aside for discussing the particular issues that Fat Princess pings. A lack of criticism of violence in computer games doesn't mean that any given blogger doesn't consider it an issue. Rather, that the site where they're publishing has a mission statement which privileges particular kinds of posts.

And so it should have stayed there instead of becoming news on Yahoo. If they don't want their opinions to be circulated, discussed and made subject to criticism then they shouldn't post them on a publicly visible site.

Well, when you say mass slaughter of men, the reality is that those games are contextualized within a war.
Assuming that the people you are fighting aren't drafted, then they are there voluntarily and know the risks. It's not like you're killing innocent civilians in these games... unless you're playing GTA4.

How many World War II games, for instance, allow you to take prisoners instead of killing the enemy combatants ? It's entirely ridiculous, of course. Nobody wants to play Geneva Convention Simulator but that's the sort of game people who refuse to accept that they have no right not to be offended want.

 

[SiorX]

I get the same thing, though. I'm well away from being physically perfect yet I'm bombarded with the same messages and downright insults in the media, and if it's not that then it's because I'm dumb, incompetent, worthless, lazy, I overreact to minor illnesses or any of the other million things that the media uses to belittle men. I just don't see what makes women and overweight people so special that they can't be criticised.

Well, if you personally don't feel that those aspects of mainstream culture which insult and devalue you are severe enough to warrant speaking out, then that's perfectly fair and it's great for you. However, I don't see why that she be grounds for dismissing those who do wish to stand up and decry messages they believe to be damaging.

Furthermore, it's probably worth considering that some people suffer from these kinds of messages a great deal more than others. Some groups simply do suffer greater discrimination than others, and it's not reasonable to argue that they should just shut the hell up about it, because other people aren't shouting as loud. The chances are that the reason group A is complaining and group B isn't is because group A is having a worse time of it than group B.

It's also misleading to say the point of any of this is that women and fat people are special and can't be criticised. Progressives aren't fighting to make marginalised groups immune to criticism. They're fighting to get people to recognise the way in which people are treated as less than equal solely because of their weight, or gender, or race. That's always a discussion worth having.

And so it should have stayed there instead of becoming news on Yahoo. If they don't want their opinions to be circulated, discussed and made subject to criticism then they shouldn't post them on a publicly visible site.

That's not what I said. Hell, the thought of feminist, body-positive, anti-racist etc arguments being widely circulated and discussed (properly discussed - not a lot of yelling at the stupid whingers to stfu) is my wet dream. Seriously.

My point was that it's not fair to complain when a feminist blog focusses on feminist issues any more than it'd be fair to give out about the way this site privileges Star Trek over Star Wars.

 

[Hermiod]

Well, if you personally don't feel that those aspects of mainstream culture which insult and devalue you are severe enough to warrant speaking out, then that's perfectly fair and it's great for you. However, I don't see why that she be grounds for dismissing those who do wish to stand up and decry messages they believe to be damaging.

Furthermore, it's probably worth considering that some people suffer from these kinds of messages a great deal more than others. Some groups simply do suffer greater discrimination than others, and it's not reasonable to argue that they should just shut the hell up about it, because other people aren't shouting as loud. The chances are that the reason group A is complaining and group B isn't is because group A is having a worse time of it than group B.

The bloggers here have turned one low budget game to be sold on the Playstation Network and not in stores in to a crusade. They aren't having a worse time of it, they can't be when you look at the top 40 games and see how many of them treat another group a lot worse.

Just because one group can shrug off discrimination and another can't is no excuse.

It's also misleading to say the point of any of this is that women and fat people are special and can't be criticised. Progressives aren't fighting to make marginalised groups immune to criticism. They're fighting to get people to recognise the way in which people are treated as less than equal solely because of their weight, or gender, or race. That's always a discussion worth having.

Of course it is, but they do so in an unequal manner. They're only trying to make anything equal for themselves, and not everyone. There can be no equality until that stops.

That's not what I said. Hell, the thought of feminist, body-positive, anti-racist etc arguments being widely circulated and discussed (properly discussed - not a lot of yelling at the stupid whingers to stfu) is my wet dream. Seriously.

My point was that it's not fair to complain when a feminist blog focusses on feminist issues any more than it'd be fair to give out about the way this site privileges Star Trek over Star Wars.

And what will happen if I went to them and commented ? The same thing that happened when that crazy woman talked about on this board who declared her belief that male initiated sex is always rape. They don't want their views challenged so they just shut down the conversation.

I have seen it a thousand times. Their opinions don't hold water so they just try to shout people down. I almost think the word "heteronormative" was invented to give them a big impressive sounding word to use when someone disagrees with them.

 

[SiorX]

The bloggers here have turned one low budget game to be sold on the Playstation Network and not in stores in to a crusade. They aren't having a worse time of it, they can't be when you look at the top 40 games and see how many of them treat another group a lot worse.

Having a look at the UK gaming chart, I'm presuming it's war games you're mostly thinking of? (I'm assuming it's not Guitar Hero or Mario Kart, anyway.) What I don't understand is why you think bloggers need to address this issue in order for their arguments against Fat Princess to be legitimate.

Man on man violence in video games is a conversation that's probably worth having. But it's not what this conversation was about. Nor was the conversation about a game by game analysis of the pros and cons of Sony's entire gaming catalogue. This conversation was about sizism (specifically, though not exclusively, against women), with reference to one particular game which was seen to be symptomatic of a wider problem.

It's a false dillemma to say that talking about discriminatory portrayals of fat women is wrong because its not talking about portrayal of war in videogames. You can talk about both. This particular conversation, in this particular space, happened to be about the former.

It's also misleading to say the point of any of this is that women and fat people are special and can't be criticised. Progressives aren't fighting to make marginalised groups immune to criticism. They're fighting to get people to recognise the way in which people are treated as less than equal solely because of their weight, or gender, or race. That's always a discussion worth having.

Of course it is, but they do so in an unequal manner. They're only trying to make anything equal for themselves, and not everyone. There can be no equality until that stops.

You can't make things equal for yourself unless your aim is equality for everyone. That's what equality means. What we all often forget is that we're not starting from an even playing field. This means that it's often necessary to focus more on the needs and problems of one group simply because there's so much work that needs to be done just to catch them up to equality with more privileged groups.

From the outside, that can look like looking for 'special' treatment. In fact, it's usually just looking to be treated in a way that those of us who have privilege take so much for granted that we don't even notice. (Random anecdote: I used to roll my eyes about how much my friend went on and on about her society for lefties and their campaign for equality in college. Then she took me on a tour of the campus pointing out the number of things which screwed her over because of designs which treated right-handedness as universal. I'd taken about 90% of them for granted. That was my privilege.)

And what will happen if I went to them and commented ? The same thing that happened when that crazy woman talked about on this board who declared her belief that male initiated sex is always rape. They don't want their views challenged so they just shut down the conversation.

I have seen it a thousand times. Their opinions don't hold water so they just try to shout people down.

Ironically, I've probably expressed exactly the same sentiments myself many times when talking about people arguing against feminisim. I've complained that they don't want their views challenged, so they just shut down conversation (by calling feminists over-sensitive, hairy-legged lesbians, or whatever). I've argued that they just shout people down rather than scrutinise their own opinions.

That said, feminist blogs (and all other kinds of anti-discrimination blogs) can be hostile to newbies. People who've been involved in it for a long time can get very impatient with having to answer the same questions over and over again. That's not fair on the individual new-comer, but it's human nature.

In my experience, familiarising oneself with the basic arguments of a group makes it easier to communicate with one another instead of pissing each other off. For Feminism, for instance, I found the Feminism101 FAQ pretty good for debunking a lot of straw men that I once believed myself.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, it doesn't help that hyperbole gets you noticed on the Internet.

 

[JuanBolio]

Fat or thin, makes no difference to me. Both can be fun.

As for video game chicks, I just want to see Princess Peach and Cortana dyke out. Nintendo... Bungie... please???

 

[Gibraltar]

Fat or thin, makes no difference to me. Both can be fun.

As for video game chicks, I just want to see Princess Peach and Cortana dyke out. Nintendo... Bungie... please???

Dude, we've talked about the dangers of you mainlining Viagra! Now I've got to clear my schedule for another intervention!

 

[Hermiod]

Having a look at the UK gaming chart, I'm presuming it's war games you're mostly thinking of? (I'm assuming it's not Guitar Hero or Mario Kart, anyway.) What I don't understand is why you think bloggers need to address this issue in order for their arguments against Fat Princess to be legitimate.

They need to look at proportion. If a low budget PSN title causes this much fuss then what should a games that sell a lot more copies on multiple platforms cause ?

Man on man violence in video games is a conversation that's probably worth having. But it's not what this conversation was about. Nor was the conversation about a game by game analysis of the pros and cons of Sony's entire gaming catalogue. This conversation was about sizism (specifically, though not exclusively, against women), with reference to one particular game which was seen to be symptomatic of a wider problem.

It's about discrimination in video games which, unlike most media, generally treat men a lot worse than anybody else. Men choose not to complain about it.

It's a false dillemma to say that talking about discriminatory portrayals of fat women is wrong because its not talking about portrayal of war in videogames. You can talk about both. This particular conversation, in this particular space, happened to be about the former.

That's the problem, though, they're just fixing problems that hurt them and nothing else. There's no equality there.

You can't make things equal for yourself unless your aim is equality for everyone. That's what equality means. What we all often forget is that we're not starting from an even playing field. This means that it's often necessary to focus more on the needs and problems of one group simply because there's so much work that needs to be done just to catch them up to equality with more privileged groups.

From the outside, that can look like looking for 'special' treatment. In fact, it's usually just looking to be treated in a way that those of us who have privilege take so much for granted that we don't even notice.

I'm sorry but I can't see them getting up in arms if this game was called "Black Prince".

Ironically, I've probably expressed exactly the same sentiments myself many times when talking about people arguing against feminisim. I've complained that they don't want their views challenged, so they just shut down conversation (by calling feminists over-sensitive, hairy-legged lesbians, or whatever). I've argued that they just shout people down rather than scrutinise their own opinions.

That said, feminist blogs (and all other kinds of anti-discrimination blogs) can be hostile to newbies. People who've been involved in it for a long time can get very impatient with having to answer the same questions over and over again. That's not fair on the individual new-comer, but it's human nature.

In my experience, familiarising oneself with the basic arguments of a group makes it easier to communicate with one another instead of pissing each other off. For Feminism, for instance, I found the Feminism101 FAQ pretty good for debunking a lot of straw men that I once believed myself.

I'm not a newbie. I'm an equalist. Feminism stopped being about equality a long time ago. I'm not making personal insults against feminists. I don't believe they're hairy legged lesbians or anything like that. I'm calling them on their often ridiculous, self-serving beliefs.

I've seen the site you linked to before. It's all very defensive and does nothing to justify their inequal approach to equality.

 

[SiorX]

They need to look at proportion. If a low budget PSN title causes this much fuss then what should a games that sell a lot more copies on multiple platforms cause ?

Again, we're not talking about a gaming blog. We are talking about a blog with a history of discussing sizism in pop culture. A game came to some feminists attention which touched on a feminist issue, and they blogged about it. however, this conversation is wrong because they didn't first dedicate more time to talking about how hard men have it? That makes no sense to me.

It's not like space to rant is a finite resource on the Internet. You say men aren't complaining about gaming constructs of masculinity. (Actually, I think there's a number who are, from both left and right wing. Simply Googling "computer game violence" brought me up a whole rake of links to opinions penned by men on both sides of the issue.)

But if the discussion needs to be had, then why sit and wait for the feminists to raise it for you? What I'm getting from your argument is that when men don't complain about something, it's just because they "can shrug it off", but when feminists complain about a feminist issue, they're being unfair to men by not raising the issue that men themselves choose not to raise. That's a pretty lopsided expectation of labour distribution.

That's the problem, though, they're just fixing problems that hurt them and nothing else. There's no equality there.

]I'm sorry but I can't see them getting up in arms if this game was called "Black Prince".

Shakesville? Actually, I'd put pretty good money on it that they would, had such a game come to their attention, given that the blog routinely includes posts against racism in politics and the media. There are hundreds of posts on Shakesville about racism. Scrolling through it this morning, there are two such posts on the front page. Racism is, afterall, a feminist issue.

I'm not a newbie. I'm an equalist. Feminism stopped being about equality a long time ago. I'm not making personal insults against feminists. I don't believe they're hairy legged lesbians or anything like that. I'm calling them on their often ridiculous, self-serving beliefs.

I've heard that complaint before - that feminism isn't about equality, it's about special treatment. I don't buy it simply because I've never found anyone willing to follow up by pointing out any specific philosophies or activism held in common by more than a few extreme straw-feminists which were sufficient to undermine the good work so many feminists strive to do.

 

[Hermiod]

But if the discussion needs to be had, then why sit and wait for the feminists to raise it for you? What I'm getting from your argument is that when men don't complain about something, it's just because they "can shrug it off", but when feminists complain about a feminist issue, they're being unfair to men by not raising the issue that men themselves choose not to raise. That's a pretty lopsided expectation of labour distribution.

It's not that big a deal to me. It just seems to me that if you're going to look for inequality in video games, you should start at the top, the biggest problems and work down. If feminism is, as you say, truly about equality then a single game is a lot less important than the entire market.

I've heard that complaint before - that feminism isn't about equality, it's about special treatment. I don't buy it simply because I've never found anyone willing to follow up by pointing out any specific philosophies or activism held in common by more than a few extreme straw-feminists which were sufficient to undermine the good work so many feminists strive to do.

Start a thread, even on a Star Trek board predominantly visited by men, on a subject where men are on the losing side of an issue. It will be immediately invaded by post after post why we shouldn't care.

 

[RandyS]

Change it to Fat Prince and then cry misandry?

No such thing. It's impossible to hate or discriminate against men.

Like hell it is.

 

[Hermiod]

Change it to Fat Prince and then cry misandry?

No such thing. It's impossible to hate or discriminate against men.

Like hell it is.

For the second time that was SARCASM!!

 

[RandyS]

No such thing. It's impossible to hate or discriminate against men.

Like hell it is.

For the second time that was SARCASM!!

That's okay. So was mine.

 

[Hermiod]

^That reads like you think it is impossible to hate or discriminate against men.

 

[RandyS]

^You're right. I should have phrased it better.

Or just said nothing. That works too.