Female command officers in TOS

[WendellM]

There was a red shirt Lt. Commander woman in "The Tholian Web" too.

Good eye, Admiral. Her rank is only visible for a moment and thus it doesn't appear in the TrekCore screenshots. But by going through the episode on DVD, I was able to find her, wearing the same braid as Scotty:

Thus she's a female senior officer: not a line/command branch one, but perhaps the highest-ranked Starfleet female one seen in TOS (while "The Enterprise Incident" showed a Romulan female Commander in charge of three ships, presumably equivalent to a Starfleet Fleet Captain or Commodore). If the (non-canonical) Franz Joseph blueprints are correct, she might be Chief of Communications (assuming "The Devil in the Dark"'s Giotto is still Chief of Security, else she might hold that position):

 

[Praetor]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Federation Commissioner Nancy Hedford from 'Metamorphosis.'

There have been lots of great suggestions in this thread already. personally, I'd have like to have seen Yvonne DeCarlo as a no-nonsense Commodore or Admiral.

^^ I've always felt that the best way to interpret Lester's references is from the perspective she was an embittered loon. Starfleet evidently couldn't miss that she was psychologically ill-equiped for the command track and kept her from it. She wouldn't be the first to perceive this as sexism rather than accepting her own shortcomings.

I simply accept that there are indeed female command officers in the TOS era and that we regrettably just never got to see them.

That's pretty much how I choose to see it, too. I accept that it was a purposefully blunt metaphor for dealing with sexism in general, but I choose to reinterpret whatever obvious 60s sexism is present in order to make the it more plausible.

I see Lester as being bitter and deluded over her failed relationship with Kirk - she was pissed that Kirk chose Starfleet and a life of command (and therefore, to her mind, a starship) over her, which meant she was in some way inadequate. Perhaps she was a Starfleet science officer at some point? Lester, in turn, sought to get into command track, perhaps partly to stay close to him, perhaps partly to outdo him, but Starfleet recognized her for the crazy she was and said no. This, in turn, led to a sense of transferrence which caused her to blame and resent Kirk, which led her to ultimately want to be Kirk.

In hindsight, it could be considered that Janice Lester's remark was sexist in its own way, implying that starship captains was a "boys only club" and deliberately ignoring that there were indeed female captains out there as well.

I think the best way to interpret Lester's remarks is that there were female starship captains but that Lester believed that the majority male captains didn't welcome them into their social circle, something like a fraternity of captains. This would be easy for her to think if she read people's rejection of her as based on her sex rather than her flawed personality.

That adds very nicely to the sort of ambiguous message that the episode was trying to deal with. Well done.

But I think it would have been a real kick if Jane Wyatt's Amanda was revealed to have been not only Spock's mother but also a retired Starfleet admiral...

...or even a diplomat. I mean, she had to meet Sarek somehow. IIRC, she was supposedly originally a teacher. A teacher? Really? How much more traditional can it get?

 

[Wingsley]

Here's the Stanwyck image I found...

LINK

 

[Timo]

I think the best way to interpret Lester's remarks is that there were female starship captains but that Lester believed that the majority male captains didn't welcome them into their social circle, something like a fraternity of captains.

Of course, Lester speaks of "your" exclusive world when addressing Kirk. Due to the shortcomings of the English language, we can't tell plural apart from singular here - but we can accept that Lester's sole focus in the episode was James Tiberius himself. So it's not even a fraternity that shuns women: it's one specific starship captain who chooses to socialize with fellow starship captains rather than with women, or more exactly, the one woman in the universe who matters...

If the (non-canonical) Franz Joseph blueprints are correct

This good old list could be taken as "correct", and it still wouldn't preclude the Chief of Communications from being a Lieutenant, or a Security Officer from being a Commander. Those ranks must be recommendations rather than absolute requirements.

Of course, if the list is accepted as such, it fails to explain a great number of TOS characters who apparently had lower than Ensign rank.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

Actually we did get a female starship commander in the form of the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident." In fact she commanded a squadron rather than just a single ship. Perhaps they felt they could get away with it by making the character an alien.

On the other hand I really think they could have pulled a human female with command rank if they'd simply gone for it. It would be interesting to know if it had actually ever been proposed for a story at some point and if (and why) it got shot down.

 

[JustKate]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Federation Commissioner Nancy Hedford from 'Metamorphosis.'

There have been lots of great suggestions in this thread already. personally, I'd have like to have seen Yvonne DeCarlo as a no-nonsense Commodore or Admiral.

Yvonne DeCarla would have been great! So would Barbara Bain - she would have made a great captain or at least a commander - and Anne Bancroft would have been just fab.

Others from the era that come to mind: Faye Dunnaway, Vanessa Redgrave, Glenda Jackson and Blythe Danner. Can anybody think of any women of color? I did a quick google search and...golly, there weren't that many working in Hollywood, aside from really big, out-of-reach stars like Lena Horne (Dorothy Dandridge died in 1965). Man, that's just not right...no wonder so much attention was paid to Nichelle Nichols and Dianne Carroll! I knew it was bad in those days, but I really had no idea how bad.

And actually, it would be nice to have some women who aren't young, either - admirals aren't usually still in their dewy youth. I'll see who I can think of.

I've always felt that the best way to interpret Lester's references is from the perspective she was an embittered loon. Starfleet evidently couldn't miss that she was psychologically ill-equiped for the command track and kept her from it. She wouldn't be the first to perceive this as sexism rather than accepting her own shortcomings.

I simply accept that there are indeed female command officers in the TOS era and that we regrettably just never got to see them.

That's pretty much how I choose to see it, too. I accept that it was a purposefully blunt metaphor for dealing with sexism in general, but I choose to reinterpret whatever obvious 60s sexism is present in order to make the it more plausible.

This is pretty much what I do, too. I just choose to interpret/pretend that (1) Janice is a loon, which she undoubtedly is; (2) that her comment is directed at Kirk out of her looniness; and (3) that there are female officers of all ranks, but that after The Menagerie, it just so happens that we don't see any in the highest ranks. Mind you, I am not by any means sure that's how TPTB originally intended that episode to be interpreted, but I let myself think of it that way - this allows me to enjoy what is otherwise, I think, a very interesting episode, and also to not think of my beloved TOS Starfleet as a good ol' boy network.

I've also wondered if the ambiguity was there on purpose? That TPTB, just to avoid trouble (with the network or whoever), wanted everybody to be able to interpret it in the way that they prefer? Could be...

 

[ltcmmanderdata]

what about number one from the cage?

 

[JustKate]

^ That's the only one that I know of - that was what I meant by my reference to "The Menagerie" (the episode made out of "The Cage" and broadcast). Some more would have been really, really nice. We had three full seasons, after all.

 

[Praetor]

Number One = Leigh Chapel, Christine's older sister?

 

[Vonstadt]

Barbara Bain would've been fine as a young Captian back in the day, I also think Kim Hunter (Zira from Planet of the Apes) would've made a nice Captian or young Commodore.

Lee Grant would've made a great woman Admiral, she played Richard Crenna's strong yet waspy wife in 1969's Marooned (Which she costarred with Mariette Hartley who played Zarabeth in TOS's "All Our Yesterdays'). She always came across as snarky yet very intelligent often cast as the world weary angry wife.

But easily couldve made a great Admiral

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

I haven't read the entire thread, so excuse me if I'm repeating this:

I know she wasn't a Starfleet commander, but the 'Romulan commander' portrayed a strong and sexy female in charge for that era. If Romulans had females commanding fleets (and I believe she had three ships under her command) then I'm sure there were female commanders in Starfleet.

As others have brought out, it can be interpreted as Lester being a crazy lady as a reason she didn't attain command.

 

[Timo]

It doesn't seem Lester ever even attempted to attain command - the two spent one year together "at Starfleet", and this year apparently ended in Lester leaving Starfleet and discontinuing her "space work" on her own volition. From the sound of it, Lester just wanted to hang around with Kirk, not to become a starship skipper herself, but Kirk becoming a captain terminated the relationship and led to Lester dropping out of Starfleet.

So rather clearly, Lester's "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" line would seem to be a direct comment on Lester's inability to pursue her time with Kirk, not a comment on whether women can be starship captains. Lester merely laments that Kirk being captain = Kirk&Lester no longer being an item.

Indeed, I'm rather convinced that the writer never intended to suggest that women couldn't be starship captains. If that had been his intention, he would have written a different phrase, or a completely different scene. The interpretation that Starfleet bans women from captain rank or position is IMHO a mistaken, fan-intended one, not founded in writer intention at all.

There's no "Get over it, this 1960s show was sexist and retconning is futile" thing going on here. Sure, there was sexism there, but the show did NOT make the specific statement that people think it was making. It just isn't supported by semantics or the general dramatic intent of the scene.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[El Chupacabra]

I think its fair to say that Roddenberry & Co probably got scared after the network made him dump Majel following The Cage.

 

[WendellM]

It doesn't seem Lester ever even attempted to attain command - the two spent one year together "at Starfleet", and this year apparently ended in Lester leaving Starfleet and discontinuing her "space work" on her own volition. From the sound of it, Lester just wanted to hang around with Kirk, not to become a starship skipper herself, but Kirk becoming a captain terminated the relationship and led to Lester dropping out of Starfleet.

Interesting approach. I never really considered that Lester might be a literal "Kirk groupie" rather than just a bit off, but her "The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive" is pretty telling when considered that way. With that being the case, her next line of "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" can indeed be seen as an obsessed rant (with emphasis on "your" rather than as a factual statement about Starfleet policy). I never put it together quite that strongly, thanks.

 

[Warped9]

I think its fair to say that Roddenberry & Co probably got scared after the network made him dump Majel following The Cage.

As I understand the real story here is that the network didn't object to Number One but rather they objected to GR casting his girlfriend in the role.

 

[Praetor]

It doesn't seem Lester ever even attempted to attain command - the two spent one year together "at Starfleet", and this year apparently ended in Lester leaving Starfleet and discontinuing her "space work" on her own volition. From the sound of it, Lester just wanted to hang around with Kirk, not to become a starship skipper herself, but Kirk becoming a captain terminated the relationship and led to Lester dropping out of Starfleet.

So rather clearly, Lester's "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" line would seem to be a direct comment on Lester's inability to pursue her time with Kirk, not a comment on whether women can be starship captains. Lester merely laments that Kirk being captain = Kirk&Lester no longer being an item.

Indeed, I'm rather convinced that the writer never intended to suggest that women couldn't be starship captains. If that had been his intention, he would have written a different phrase, or a completely different scene. The interpretation that Starfleet bans women from captain rank or position is IMHO a mistaken, fan-intended one, not founded in writer intention at all.

There's no "Get over it, this 1960s show was sexist and retconning is futile" thing going on here. Sure, there was sexism there, but the show did NOT make the specific statement that people think it was making. It just isn't supported by semantics or the general dramatic intent of the scene.

Timo Saloniemi

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! That is exactly how I've always interpreted the 'Your line of starship captains doesn't admit women' line. Exactly what I've tried to say before, but, as is custom with you, done a thousand times better. Bravo!

I just add the notion that she was so wacky that by the time we met her in 'Turnabout Intruder' she had this transferance thing going on and actually wanted to be Kirk. She viewed herself as having been victimized by him (in the sense of being neglected and cast aside, which is where her sense of helplessness would come from) and wanted to be the one with the power to exact revenge.

I think its fair to say that Roddenberry & Co probably got scared after the network made him dump Majel following The Cage.

As I understand the real story here is that the network didn't object to Number One but rather they objected to GR casting his girlfriend in the role.

Indeed, I believe that the 'network wasn't ready' argument was ultimately part of the infamous GR spin.

 

[WendellM]

Indeed, I believe that the 'network wasn't ready' argument was ultimately part of the infamous GR spin.

As I understand the real story here is that the network didn't object to Number One but rather they objected to GR casting his girlfriend in the role.

I don't think there's any way to get a truly objective/neutral view, but failing that, here's Herb Solow's and Bob Justman's take from Inside Star Trek:

Gene Roddenberry's secretary at the time was Dorothy Fontana. She liked the concept and, after typing the presentation, questioned him as to who would play Spock. Gene told her he had already decided on Leonard Nimoy, a little-known actor who had just finished appearing in an episode of The Lieutenant along with a little-known actress named Majel Barrett. (p. 15)

Possibly because Barbara [Bain] was to be the female lead - probably because Barbara was married to Martin Landau, star of Mission - Lucy [Ball] suspected a little favoritism. Favoritism in casting would eventually cause a "Lucy problem" for me because of Gene and his "Number One," actress Majel Barrett. (p. 22)

"Guys, listen. Roddenberry has this strong feeling he's found a marvelous woman for the role of Number One. The fact that she's still unknown to the public is to our advantage. It'll add humanity and believeability to the concept. After all, this is science fiction. Right?"

NBC Program Executive Jerry Stanley stared quizically at NBC Vice President Grant Tinker. Then Jerry grumbled, "Christ, Herb, this is madness. She's his girlfriend. I remember hanging around Gene's office at MGM when he was doing The Lieutenant for us."

The simple truth is that NBC resented being put into such an awkward position, but in the end Grant and Jerry didn't want to rock the boat with Gene. Majel was cast as Number One, the U.S.S. Enterprise executive officer, playing opposite Jeffrey Hunter's Captain Christopher Pike. (pp. 39-40)

Yikes! Rough stuff to read, but maybe that's the way it was.

 

[Warped9]

Barbara Bain as Number One could have rocked!

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I think its fair to say that Roddenberry & Co probably got scared after the network made him dump Majel following The Cage.

As I understand the real story here is that the network didn't object to Number One but rather they objected to GR casting his girlfriend in the role.

Moreover, iirc, the suits didn't feel that Majel Barrett was a strong enough actress to be the female lead of the series.

Barbara Bain as Number One could have rocked!

Which is something I also proposed in a thread on TOS "what if's" a long while back.

Barbara Bain certainly can play cold and logical. In fact, Helena Russel in the first season of Space: 1999 had similar qualities to Number One.

 

[Praetor]

Wow, thanks for that, WendellM. And indeed, Barbara Bain is generally awesome.