How is a largely benevolent government a threat to the Dominion? This sounds like Changeling propaganda.
--Sran
Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.
- Thread starter M.A.C.O.
- Start date
How is a largely benevolent government a threat to the Dominion? This sounds like Changeling propaganda.
--Sran
Changelings had been historically victimized by "solids". Diplomatic talks were a nonstarter. So the Changelings pushed for Domination. The Federation refused to submit to Changeling demands. Remember the Federation ventures into the Gamma Quad were seen as hostile transgressions into Dominion Space.
That's exactly my point. The Founders perceived the Federation as threat, but that doesn't mean that they actually were. Perception doesn't equal reality, despite what the Great Link would have everyone believe.
Based on what?
--Sran
Probably on the fact that the first wave of reinforcements from the main body of the Dominion was an ass puckering 2800 ships... and earlier in that same episode a force of 1200 ships was an ungodly huge force that outnumbered the good guys 2 to 1.
By all accounts when the Dominion can maintain themselves with just the resources of the Cardassian Union and very nearly win, imagine how many waves of reinforcements they'd be facing with the whole of the Dominion sending wave after wave of reinforcements every one of their world breeding Jem'Hadar by the millions, and assembling ships weekly.
By all accounts when the Dominion can maintain themselves with just the resources of the Cardassian Union and very nearly win, imagine how many waves of reinforcements they'd be facing with the whole of the Dominion sending wave after wave of reinforcements every one of their world breeding Jem'Hadar by the millions, and assembling ships weekly.
I'll concede that the Dominion's numbers are staggering, but if this is to be a true rematch, then who's the say the Federation fights this battle alone? I'm sure both the Klingons and the Romulans would have a problem with the Dominion once again threatening their borders. The Romulan government changed significantly post-Nemesis, but that wouldn't preclude their military from responding to Dominion incursion.
--Sran
The Klingons would be with the Federation, but the Romulans aren't a given. But even if they are... I don't see it making much of a difference. The three of them nearly lost to the Dominion with just the resources of Cardassia and later the Breen at their disposal as an industrial base to build their fleets and breed Jem'Hadar.
So after their humiliating defeat, I don't see them, even with Odo among them, giving in to an era of good feelings towards the solids. Heck, even Odo was blatantly resentful towards the morphogenic virus. Now factor in that they're holding the Female Founder hostage indefinitely for her "crimes" and by her own admission one changeling is more important than the whole Alpha Quadrant and I think you have them immediately gearing up for the next fight revanchist style.
So after their humiliating defeat, I don't see them, even with Odo among them, giving in to an era of good feelings towards the solids. Heck, even Odo was blatantly resentful towards the morphogenic virus. Now factor in that they're holding the Female Founder hostage indefinitely for her "crimes" and by her own admission one changeling is more important than the whole Alpha Quadrant and I think you have them immediately gearing up for the next fight revanchist style.
But alas my friends. Recall that Romulus no longer exists. While the Romulan Star Empire has potentially hundreds of conquered worlds and potential colonies where Romulans might still exist. I doubt they will seriously involve themselves in conflict of that magnitude with their races being nearly extinct.
If we decide to ignore JJTrek's meddling with the Prime timeline. We have to look at the dreadnought class Scimitar ships. With their extreme armaments, perfect cloak that can be activated while disruptors and torpedoes are fires, enhanced shields, and the planet encompassing thalaron weapon. If the Romulans were involved in another Dominion War the Federation would be hard pressed to prevent them from using that bio weapon. Hell a fleet of Scimitar class ships would be enough to cut Jem'Hadar and Cardassian ranks to pieces.
With Starfleet we had to remember that they are not a military per se. The Klingon and Romulan fleets are militaries. Romulan's making advances in military might is to be expected. While Klingons are routinely shown to be apemen with rockstar hair. Military ingenuity seems to have left them after TUC. Since the Klingons were the first to develop a ship that can fire while cloaked. The Federation has developed phasing cloaking technology but it was in violation of a treaty with the Rommies. However the tactical advantages of a phasing cloak can't be ignored in an all out war.
If we decide to ignore JJTrek's meddling with the Prime timeline. We have to look at the dreadnought class Scimitar ships. With their extreme armaments, perfect cloak that can be activated while disruptors and torpedoes are fires, enhanced shields, and the planet encompassing thalaron weapon. If the Romulans were involved in another Dominion War the Federation would be hard pressed to prevent them from using that bio weapon. Hell a fleet of Scimitar class ships would be enough to cut Jem'Hadar and Cardassian ranks to pieces.
With Starfleet we had to remember that they are not a military per se. The Klingon and Romulan fleets are militaries. Romulan's making advances in military might is to be expected. While Klingons are routinely shown to be apemen with rockstar hair. Military ingenuity seems to have left them after TUC. Since the Klingons were the first to develop a ship that can fire while cloaked. The Federation has developed phasing cloaking technology but it was in violation of a treaty with the Rommies. However the tactical advantages of a phasing cloak can't be ignored in an all out war.
The Romulans have a vast interstellar government. Romulus' destruction wouldn't mean the end of their civilization anymore than Earth's demise would mean the end of the Federation. It would be a setback, but nothing more.
AllStarEntprise said:
What are you talking about? The thalaron generator was a device used solely by Shinzon and his co-conspirators during Nemesis. Why would Romulans utilize a similar device knowing that it would jeopardize any alliance with the Federation?
AllStarEntprise said:
Webster's Dictionary defines military as "of or relating to soldiers or supported by armed force." Starfleet absolutely is a military organization, in spite of what Gene Roddenberry wanted everyone to believe. I don't know what to make of your comment about the Klingons other than that it seems highly inappropriate.
AllStarEntprise said:
The Klingon vessel seen in TUC was an illegal prototype developed by rogue elements within the Klingon government. Why would Martok risk the ire of the Federation by employing such a device a second time? The phasing cloak was also developed illegally and would not be permitted in any armed conflict with the Dominion. Why are you suggesting that the Federation and its allies rely on technology that their own rules and regulations explicitly prohibit? Did I not tell you just yesterday that the ends don't justify the means?
--Sran
The Cardassian union + Breen + whatever they brought over earlier.
Not really... suppose that Tain didn't screw it up and destroyed the Founders. He wouldn't have gotten them all, being they're bound to be some undercover or elsewhere, and even if he somehow did... was he dumb enough to think the Vorta aren't the ones that provide the white and they wouldn't go apeshit in revenge?
He was-- he so much as stated if they wiped out the Founders, the Jem Hadar would run out of white. He was way off.
With the way the Dominion is set up, it is capable of running with hardly any input from a Founder. At least for a while anyway.
The 'do whatever it takes' to win philosophy has its ups and downs I think.
On the one end, doing things like pushing sentient beings to fight for you is dangerous and the Federation becomes the very thing it is fighting against.
But then again, 'photons be free"?? lol
On the other hand, those principles are going to give in to survival when a few million brutal Jem Hadar soldiers land on the planet.
Its too late then.
Remember that episode where during negotiations, they discovered a planet that could be used to make White for the Jem Hadar. They were running out of it.
Problem solved, keep the planet away from them right? Let them run out of white.
Julian argued that they should give them the planet. Because if they didn't, the Dominion would get desperate and launch an all out assault on the Federation that could cost many lives.
They're at war--that's going to happen anyway. On the one hand it makes sense, on the other it sounds really naive and super pacifist.
Solution: kill all founders but a few - whom you will keep hostage, coercing the dominion to do your bidding.
You don't need sentient anything to run ships.
A starship computer is better than all humans at many tasks and better than most humans at the rest.
Creativity?
The gains from it, during a large-scale war, are lost in the statistical white-noise.
Actually, it makes no sense - if Bashir thought that the federation was going to defeat the dominion without going through its full alpha quadrant forces or with little loss of life, he was deluding himself.
As for the planet - if you can't hold it, you must destroy it - in order to save many millions.
Sentient beings trump an all but barren rock any day of the week - unless you're an ecological fanatic, that is.
To the initial premise of fighting a war with unmanned starships rather than manned starships given the high level of computer technology in the future.
It would seem that this type of warfare would be the most likely evolution but it makes for poor fiction. Computers could easily be programmed to recognize and react to hostile targets, communicate with other unmanned forces and engage in combat appropriately. It clearly sanitizes war . . . at least until some unmanned forces come into contact with manned vessels or planets . . . in which case it depends on the programming as to what happens then.
As an economic power the Federation would seem much more productive in mass producing unmanned ships and computer programs than training sentient beings to go into space to likely be killed in combat. It would seem a FAR more productive form of warfare for the Federation (or most races really).
It would seem that this type of warfare would be the most likely evolution but it makes for poor fiction. Computers could easily be programmed to recognize and react to hostile targets, communicate with other unmanned forces and engage in combat appropriately. It clearly sanitizes war . . . at least until some unmanned forces come into contact with manned vessels or planets . . . in which case it depends on the programming as to what happens then.
As an economic power the Federation would seem much more productive in mass producing unmanned ships and computer programs than training sentient beings to go into space to likely be killed in combat. It would seem a FAR more productive form of warfare for the Federation (or most races really).
If the Feds REALLY wanted to win
they could adapt future Voyager's weapons, stealth, and armor and tear into the Doms.
But but but...those were developed for the Borg....pretty sure if one transphasic torp can take out a Cube; what could one do to a Dominion space station or heavily guarded tactical facility.
Pretty sure SFI (or the remnants of 31) have access to the tech
they could adapt future Voyager's weapons, stealth, and armor and tear into the Doms.
But but but...those were developed for the Borg....pretty sure if one transphasic torp can take out a Cube; what could one do to a Dominion space station or heavily guarded tactical facility.
Pretty sure SFI (or the remnants of 31) have access to the tech
With the female changeling currently imprisoned by the Federation, and Odo returned to his people. Linking with them and by extension giving them the cure and the knowledge of what Section 31 did to win the war. This includes the Federation Council and Starfleet Command signing off on withholding the cure from the changelings. The changelings have cause to instigate another conflict in retaliation if they choose.
Question is, What do you think the Dominion could do differently to win next time? The Dominion had no trouble kicking in the teeth of the Fed., Klingons and Rommies.
I don't have the imagination to see what the Dominion could do better in a rematch. Would someone mind coming up with one?
Question is, What do you think the Dominion could do differently to win next time? The Dominion had no trouble kicking in the teeth of the Fed., Klingons and Rommies.
I don't have the imagination to see what the Dominion could do better in a rematch. Would someone mind coming up with one?
Well an unmanned ship could be made smaller than a manned one. They'd basically be phaser emitters and torpedo launchers on a warp engine. And the Cardassians did use them to great effect in the Battle of Chin'toka. Squadrons of such ships could have a place in swarming on the more heavily armed ships allowing the bigger maned ships to hit easier targets and cause heavy damage to the Dominion Cardassian fleet. Until a Founder breaks into Starfleet Command and reprograms the drones.
Not to mention that starships in the Star Trek Universe seem to be equiped with larger weapons that are more powerful to use against other large ships. When swarmed with smaller, faster drones it would be akin to swatting mosquitos with a baseball bat. Whichever mosquitos you hit will be out of play but its a terribly inefficient way to deal with large numbers of drones as you are taking significant damage.
It would be like building an APC with a TOW weapon system as its only armament. That might work great against other APCs, Tanks and buildings but would be terribly inefective against opposing infantry.
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