Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

[kgartm1185]

Sovereign Class
Phaser Array Number/Type/Output = 16 Phaser Arrays/ Type XII/100,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 1 Rapid Fire Quantum Torpedo Tube, 4 Burst Fire Photon Torpedo Tubes, 4 Standard Photon Torpedo Tubes/300 Torpedoes
Shield Type/Capacity = Auto Modulated Shield System/ Total Capacity 5,737,500 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Heavy Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/10 cm. Ablative Armor
VS
Valdore Type
Disruptor Number/Type/Output = 12 Pulse Disruptor Cannons/Medium and Heavy/55,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 6 S3 Torpedo Tubes
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 3,240,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Heavy Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/ 8 cm. High Density Armor

And

Galaxy Class
Phaser Array Number/Type/Output = 14 Phaser Arrays/ Type X/70,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 2 Burst Fire Photon Torpedo Tubes
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 5,103,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Standard Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/9 cm. High Density Armor
VS
D'deridex Class
Disruptor Number/Output = 6 Disruptor Cannons/65,000 Terawatts
Torpedo Launcher Number/Quantity = 12 S2 Torpedo Tubes/800
Shield Type/Capacity = Standard Shield System/ Total Capacity 2,295,000 Terajoules
Hull Armor Type/ Thickness = Standard Duranium/Tritanium Double Hull/ 11 cm. High Density Armor

I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
www.ditl.org

 

[BillJ]

I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.
www.ditl.org

No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.

 

[R. Star]

Yeah, you're basically trying to conclusively argue that someone else's speculation as a hard fact.

 

[Dale Sams]

Did any one mention all that Delta Quadrant and future tech Janeway brought back?

/drops mic.

 

[MacLeod]

Well a 2D non-canical map counts for nothing. And given that space is three-dimensional a 2D map might not show borders which exist so the CU and the KE could share a border.

But whilst it is true we saw many older designs of Federation ships such as the Miranda Class being destroyed, those would no doubt have been replaced by newer designs so in theory the UFP could come out in a better position in terms of avialbale type of ships.

 

[kgartm1185]

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.

 

[R. Star]

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.

Well there have(and will continue to be) debates about what is. The producers and creator never could come to any consensus about what is and isn't canon, Roddenberry picking and choosing movies/series, producers counteracting that, some saying their novels count, and so forth.

But the generally accepted definition is the base material is what happens on screen. So no novels, tech manuals, games etc. Though on the subject of games, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Garidians on that map. For a one time vassal state to the Romulans, they carved out a huge chunk of space. Though even that map got it wrong as Frigis was said in the game to be in Federation space.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!

That map isn't cannon, so citing it as proof of your argument is a waste of everyone's time. What on-screen evidence can you provide to illustrate your point?

2. Why would the Romulans only send a few ships to the front lines?

This has already been explained to you. The Romulans opened a second front against the Dominion and deployed most of their forces at that location. Only a small fraction of their military was dispatched to fight alongside the Federation and the Klingons. The exact reasoning behind this isn't clear, but there are lines of dialogue to illustrate that this is exactly what happened.

3. The Sovereign class is obviously stronger than the Valdore type warbirds because of many reasons including armament. But in the battle against the Scimitar, those ships lasted what, like 5-6 minutes! Meanwhile the Enterprise took far more hits and only two sections of their shields which they regenerated thanks to superior Federation technology.

Shinzon did not want to destroy the Enterprise, something that's also included in the film's dialogue. It was only after both ships were damaged beyond repair that he decided to use the thalaron weapon. Following the Scimitar's destruction, Commander Donatra offered the Enterprise assistance (medical supplies, equipment) because they were in worse shape than the Valdore-class vessels.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And we know for a fact that they couldn't have shared a border because the Klingon fleet commanded by the Martok Changeling had to travel through both Federation and Bajoran space to reach Cardassian territory. It makes absolutely no sense that they would stop at Deep Space 9 en route if a more direct route to Cardassia were available.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.

It's precisely because that site isn't cannon that it does not give an idea of each ship's strengths. And it does matter if material is cannon or not because everyone must be allowed to have the same reference point from which to evaluate the events in question. People are free to draw their own conclusions, of course, but everyone has to have the same starting point.

No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.

Exactly. Otherwise, anyone could argue that their fan fiction is just as valid as anything that happens on screen. I've certainly read fan fiction that I think is superior to some of the material that was ultimately aired, but that doesn't mean the material is cannon. Only television and film are considered cannon as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned. Unless someone (Rick Berman, for example) says otherwise, that's not likely to change.

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.

Except that there's nothing that actually proves this. The Federation would seem to be the strongest of the three, but we never see them engaged in a prolonged conflict with either the Klingons or the Romulans. Therefore, there's no way to know for sure which power is the strongest.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

I don't care if it is canon or not, it just gives an idea of the strength of most Star Trek ships.

It's precisely because that site isn't cannon that it does not give an idea of each ship's strengths. And it does matter if material is cannon or not because everyone must be allowed to have the same reference point from which to evaluate the events in question. People are free to draw their own conclusions, of course, but everyone has to have the same starting point.

No it gives what someone who has no association with the various Trek productions thinks.

Sorry. The reason that being on screen is important is that it gives everyone the same standard for reference.

Exactly. Otherwise, anyone could argue that their fan fiction is just as valid as anything that happens on screen. I've certainly read fan fiction that I think is superior to some of the material that was ultimately aired, but that doesn't mean the material is cannon. Only television and film are considered cannon as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned. Unless someone (Rick Berman, for example) says otherwise, that's not likely to change.

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.

Except that there's nothing that actually proves this. The Federation would seem to be the strongest of the three, but we never see them engaged in a prolonged conflict with either the Klingons or the Romulans. Therefore, there's no way to know for sure which power is the strongest.

--Sran

If there's no proof of which is strongest, then why would anyone start a thread about which one is stronger?

 

[kgartm1185]

I just don't know what's considered canon in Star Trek besides what happens in the TV shows and movies. I've always just assumed that the Federation was the strongest, then the Klingons, and lastly the Romulans.

Well there have(and will continue to be) debates about what is. The producers and creator never could come to any consensus about what is and isn't canon, Roddenberry picking and choosing movies/series, producers counteracting that, some saying their novels count, and so forth.

But the generally accepted definition is the base material is what happens on screen. So no novels, tech manuals, games etc. Though on the subject of games, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Garidians on that map. For a one time vassal state to the Romulans, they carved out a huge chunk of space. Though even that map got it wrong as Frigis was said in the game to be in Federation space.

Thank you for explaining it to me without being snobby and mean unlike other posters.
Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

If there's no proof of which is strongest, then why would anyone start a thread about which one is stronger?

Because topics like that invite discussion and debate, which is exactly why forums like this were created in the first place. Star Trek isn't real. The events that happen in its universe aren't real (as far as we know given that most of them happen in the future). Yet they're discussed over and over again because they're fun to talk about.

If everything were clear-cut, there would be no point in discussing anything. People like discussing topics that are challenging and force one to reexamine his or her viewpoints.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?

Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?

Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran

Ok, gotcha.

 

[Timo]

...As regards that map, it's sorta related to what goes on onscreen. About as related as I'm to Abraham Lincoln, but still.

The map is the handiwork of a fan named Christian Rühl, and attracted the attention and approval of another fan Geoffrey Mandel who then wrote and illustrated the Star Trek Star Charts book. The book isn't canon - but was in turn an influence on the people who made DS9 and VOY, and some of its artwork in fact was created in two-way cooperation with those people and shows.

No, this chain of events does not establish the relative sizes of the UFP, the RSE and the KE in canonical terms. But amusingly enough, it does establish things like the route of the Voyager: the canonical route map, glimpsed in some Season 7 episodes, was a Mandel piece first portrayed in this book. (Alas, this galactic map doesn't show such fine detail as the tiny dots that would be UFP, RSE and KE...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[R. Star]

Also, would Memory Alpha be considered canon, being called the "Canon Encyclopedia"?

Unfortunately, no. Memory Alpha is an excellent reference tool, but there are bits and pieces of information within the site that aren't supported by anything on screen. MA contains several paragraphs about Captain Picard's twenty-two-year run as the commander of the USS Stargazer. Yet there's absolutely no dialogue in TNG that supports this; what we know of Picard's time aboard the Stargazer is that Jack Crusher served with him and that he took command of the ship's bridge after a previous captain was killed.

But there is absolutely no information about how long he served on the vessel, nor is it clear how he rose to the rank of captain.

--Sran

Q said something about Picard taking command when the Stargazer's captain was injured in Tapestry.

 

[T'Girl]

You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation ...

No, the point I was making is that the blue area will include both Federation planets and non-Federation planets. Membership is voluntary.

... and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read ...

Uh huh.

that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.

You also need to consider how many planets would be above and below the level of that image.

 

[kgartm1185]

You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation ...

No, the point I was making is that the blue area will include both Federation planets and non-Federation planets. Membership is voluntary.

... and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read ...

Uh huh.

that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.

You also need to consider how many planets would be above and below the level of that image.

Oh, OK. I understand you now. That's a better map in showing how many planets the Klingon Empire includes but it seems to show less for the Federation.

In ST: DS9, didn't Weyoun tell Dukat after Dukat's show of overconfidence that "holding on to a prize as vast as the Federation isn't going to be easy. It's going to require an enormous number of ships, a massive occupation army and constant vigilance."

 

[MacLeod]

As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And we know for a fact that they couldn't have shared a border because the Klingon fleet commanded by the Martok Changeling had to travel through both Federation and Bajoran space to reach Cardassian territory. It makes absolutely no sense that they would stop at Deep Space 9 en route if a more direct route to Cardassia were available.

--Sran

Have to disagree with your logic there. If the most direct (i.e. shortest) route from were the Klingon fleet departed from to reach Cardassian territory was through Federation space. It doesn't preculde a border that is less direct (i.e. a longer route).