Federation Versus The Romulan Empire

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Wars are not conducted with preset protocols or etiquette that opposing sides are obligated to follow. It's not a sport where there are rules and a referee who will call out violators of each side.

The men and women who presided over the Nuremberg Trials following World War II would disagree with you.

I never said genocide was acceptable. However if the Romulans wanted a victory, and genocide of Earth would achieve such a goal. What would be the harm in letting Shinzon carry out his plan? Who is going to hold the Romulans accountable when they are ruling the remaining Federation worlds?

Why are you so convinced that the Federation would simply cease to exist if Earth's population were eradicated? The Federation (and its allies) would hold the Romulans accountable for Earth's destruction and would pursue Shinzon and his followers until they were brought to justice.

Donatra and Suran couldn't live with themselves if such a thing happened so they left to fight against Shinzon.

Because they doubtless realized that any attempt to wipe out Earth's population would mean disaster for Romulus, not the victory that Shinzon so desperately wanted. The Federation's allies would not have been content to stand by and watch while billions of Federation citizens were killed using a weapon of mass destruction.

However out of the entire Romulan fleet only two ships went to stop Shinzon. Two. I'm not judging the race on a whole but sending so few ships? The rest of military seemed indifferent of the result whether Shinzon succeeded or failed.

Which has nothing to do with my original point. Genocide isn't acceptable. That the entire Romulan fleet didn't oppose Shinzon doesn't mean that the Romulan people approved of what he was doing. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

--Sran

 

[BillJ]

I like the Romulans, but never found them all that impressive as adversaries. They run and hide every time the Federation gives them a bloody nose.

 

[Timo]

The men and women who presided over the Nuremberg Trials following World War II would disagree with you.

That's just the victors making the losers look bad. It's not something relating to the rules of war, not really. Say, Germany was accused of, and sentenced for, planning a war of aggression against Norway - whereas the UK and France planned the very same thing, only Germany beat them to it. And never mind bombardment of civilian targets...

Why are you so convinced that the Federation would simply cease to exist if Earth's population were eradicated?

Well, all the characters of Star Trek seem convinced of that. They should know...

The Federation (and its allies) would hold the Romulans accountable for Earth's destruction and would pursue Shinzon and his followers until they were brought to justice.

Or then ally with them. From what we have seen, Vulcans might well like Romulans better than humans. And why would Andorians cry for spilled milk? Revenge is a distasteful Klingon thing... (And human. But humans would be gone.)

Because they doubtless realized that any attempt to wipe out Earth's population would mean disaster for Romulus, not the victory that Shinzon so desperately wanted. The Federation's allies would not have been content to stand by and watch while billions of Federation citizens were killed using a weapon of mass destruction.

Said allies might just as well capitulate in front of such a devastating weapon.

Genocide isn't acceptable.

To Romulans? They seemed to be pretty thorough about wiping all life from Narendra III. Why hesitate with Earth? It's just another enemy planet...

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

Statistically speaking, it always is.

As for only two ships going after Shinzon, it would seem prudent for the Romulan military to arrange for the absence of its own forces from the vicinity of the homeworld when Shinzon pulls off his Spartacus rebellion. Otherwise, the military would look weak, now wouldn't it? Hiding the presence might have to involve actually withdrawing most warships, leaving only two available to pursue.

Perhaps this "no warships swarming around your own homeworld" thing has some sort of a universal rationale behind it, considering how Earth and Qo'noS often seem devoid of Fleet-size protection (most of Trek and "Redemption", respectively).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Andres]

The Federation would win because the Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed at the outbreak of war and by the time the Allied Fleet attacked Cardassia Prime attempting to break the blockade the Romulan Fleet had taken substantial casualties, in battle and over the long campaign had caused the Romulans to take the blunt of casualties. And in 2287 according to Spock Prime Romulus is destroyed so i think it's pretty much over right there.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The Federation would win because the Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed at the outbreak of war and by the time the Allied Fleet attacked Cardassia Prime attempting to break the blockade the Romulan Fleet had taken substantial casualties, in battle and over the long campaign had caused the Romulans to take the blunt of casualties. And in 2287 according to Spock Prime Romulus is destroyed so i think it's pretty much over right there.

*sigh*

1. The Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed more than two years before the outbreak of the Dominion War.

2. There's no on-screen evidence that the Romulan fleet had taken heavy casualties. Only that the flagship was destroyed.

3. That Romulus is destroyed doesn't mean that the RSE would suddenly cease to function. The majority of their fleet would still be intact, as it's unlikely most of their vessels would be stationed anywhere near Romulus at the time of the supernova.

4. Is it really too trouble for people to use proper grammar and punctuation? I realize that not everyone here is the same age or speaks English as their first language, but it's disturbing that people can't go to the trouble of typing sentences and phrases that make sense.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.

Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.

"1. The Tal Shiar fleet was destroyed more than two years before the outbreak of the Dominion War."

In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet. An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.

They're called the Undine, and they're not actually native to the Milky Way Galaxy. They don't belong on your list. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that the Federation has more ships than the Romulan Empire, as nothing suggesting this is stated on screen. Please limit your points to discussing factual evidence rather than speculating about something that has no basis in fact.

Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.

It doesn't indicate that at all. The only thing that may inferred from Commander Suran's statement is that the Federation would be less of a threat to Romulus with Shinzon's support, not that the Federation is clearly stronger than the Romulan Empire.

In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet.

That someone says something doesn't make it fact. The Dominion made a number of incorrect assumptions about the Alpha Quadrant as they prepared to invade. The Founders had little if any respect for their opponents and weren't likely to say anything favorable about them regarding their military prowess. The destruciton of the Tal Shiar fleet was a significant blow, but it wasn't a death sentence for Romulus by any stretch of the imagination.

An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.

Based on what? Where's your evidence to support this point? The Romulan-Cardassian fleet Tain commanded was composed of twenty ships. Although we've no way of knowing what percentage of the Romulan fleet was lost in that engagement, it's a stretch to believe the entire fleet would need rebuilding after such an incident. After thirty nine Federation ships were lost at olf 359, Shelby estimated that it would take less than a year for the fleet to return to full strength, hardly the two years you're arguing wouldn't be enough time to complete the task.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

The Federation is the strongest power in the Milky Way behind the Dominion, Borg, and Species 8472 (or the Undie). It has more ships than the Romulan Empire and more powerful ships to say the least.

They're called the Undine, and they're not actually native to the Milky Way Galaxy. They don't belong on your list. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that the Federation has more ships than the Romulan Empire, as nothing suggesting this is stated on screen. Please limit your points to discussing factual evidence rather than speculating about something that has no basis in fact.

Plus, remember at the beginning of Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan is trying to convince the senate to join Shinzon. He says that with Shinzon, not even the Federation would be able to stand in their way. This indicates that the Federation is stronger than the Romulan Star Empire.

It doesn't indicate that at all. The only thing that may inferred from Commander Suran's statement is that the Federation would be less of a threat to Romulus with Shinzon's support, not that the Federation is clearly stronger than the Romulan Empire.

In the DS9 episode where the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order Fleets are destroyed. The changeling on one of the Romulan ships says that with the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar fleet destroyed, the only real threat is the Federation and the Klingons. This means that the Romulans took heavy losses to their fleet.

That someone says something doesn't make it fact. The Dominion made a number of incorrect assumptions about the Alpha Quadrant as they prepared to invade. The Founders had little if any respect for their opponents and weren't likely to say anything favorable about them regarding their military prowess. The destruciton of the Tal Shiar fleet was a significant blow, but it wasn't a death sentence for Romulus by any stretch of the imagination.

An 2 years isn't a long enough time to rebuild a fleet.

Based on what? Where's your evidence to support this point? The Romulan-Cardassian fleet Tain commanded was composed of twenty ships. Although we've no way of knowing what percentage of the Romulan fleet was lost in that engagement, it's a stretch to believe the entire fleet would need rebuilding after such an incident. After thirty nine Federation ships were lost at olf 359, Shelby estimated that it would take less than a year for the fleet to return to full strength, hardly the two years you're arguing wouldn't be enough time to complete the task.

--Sran

There actually is evidence that Starfleet has more ships. For one, the Federation is a lot bigger than the Romulan Empire, so it'd need more ships to cover that area. Also, during the Dominion War, there were clearly more Starfleet and Klingon ships than Romulan. Anyways, maybe no one has ever said that Starfleet is stronger than the Romulans, but onscreen evidence sure does point to Starfleet. In the TV shows and movies, Starfleet has always had a more powerful ship than the Romulan's flagship.
TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird.
TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga
Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird
Even in all of the games, Starfleet seems to do better than the Romulans.

 

[BillJ]

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird
DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird.
TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga
Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird

I wonder where you're getting your information? Rarely have we seen any of these ships go toe-to-toe one on one. The only one I can really remember is the Constitution vs. a Romulan Bird-of-Prey. Even there, I'd say it was more about who was in the center seat than them having the superior ship.

 

[Timo]

Curiously enough, we don't really even know whether the Federation is bigger than the Romulan Star Empire. There are no onscreen maps depicting the borders of these entities, not unambiguously, and there are no dialogue counts of star systems or other types of real estate.

That Romulans didn't send many ships to fight the Dominion doesn't mean they had fewer than the enemy. The British carefully avoided sending more aircraft to defend France when the situation there became hopeless in 1940; this should not be mistaken for meaning that there was a shortage of aircraft in Britain.

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird

Doesn't seem like that when our heroes encounter those vessels. Sure, Romulans tend to send two to ensure a kill, but in TOS they sent three to five ships... One-on-one engagements are also typical, and at best Picard can hope for mutual destruction there.

Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird

Based on what? The two never fought, or even postured against each other.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

There actually is evidence that Starfleet has more ships.

Oh? When is it stated on screen that Starfleet has more ships? When?

For one, the Federation is a lot bigger than the Romulan Empire, so it'd need more ships to cover that area.

That's not evidence. It's a logical conclusion, but it's not evidence to support your point.

Also, during the Dominion War, there were clearly more Starfleet and Klingon ships than Romulan.

Dialogue clearly establishes that the Romulans maintained a separate front with the Dominion, so one would not expect to see the same number of Romulan ships compared to either the Federation or the Klingons. Still waiting for evidence.

Anyways, maybe no one has ever said that Starfleet is stronger than the Romulans, but onscreen evidence sure does point to Starfleet.

If it's never been stated or shown on screen, then there's no evidence. Congratulations on shooting down your argument.

In the TV shows and movies, Starfleet has always had a more powerful ship than the Romulan's flagship.

What are you basing that on, as we never actually see the Romulan flagship in action? It's stated in "What You Leave Behind" that a vessel carrying the designation of the the Romulan flagship is destroyed, but we never see the vessel or hear of it at any other time. There's no way to know how successful the ship was against Dominion opponents based on a single line of dialogue.

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird

You're reaching. If anything, the Romulan vessels of this era are the equal of their Federation counterparts. LaForge notes that they have a lower maximum velocity but that they're of a superior size and that their weapons and sensors "as good as" those found on Federation ships.

DS9 - Yet again the Galaxy Class seems to outperform than the D'deridex Warbird

Based on what? We don't see a Galaxy-class vessel engage a Romulan ship in this setting.

TOS - Constitution Class> Romulan Bird of Prey/ Romulan D7/ Ktinga

I agree with this. I'll add the caveat that it has no bearing on a hypothetical war between the Federation and the Romulan Empire taking place in the twenty fourth century.

Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird

Again, what are you basing this on? That Donatra's ship was heavily damaged by Shinzon's vessel? As I recall, the Enterprise was in terrible shape herself. Hardly a basis for implying that a Sovereign-class vessel is superior to its Valdore counterpart.

Even in all of the games, Starfleet seems to do better than the Romulans.

Video and computer games are not cannon. You cannot use non-cannon material to support an argument about material that is cannon. Unless you can provide me with dialogue stating that the Federation has more ships, I'm not interested in debating this issue with you any further.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I wonder where you're getting your information? Rarely have we seen any of these ships go toe-to-toe one on one. The only one I can really remember is the Constitution vs. a Romulan Bird-of-Prey. Even there, I'd say it was more about who was in the center seat than them having the superior ship.

And the Romulan Commander from that episode was himself a capable military strategist, something noted by Kirk more than once while the two vessels were searching for each other.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

Curiously enough, we don't really even know whether the Federation is bigger than the Romulan Star Empire. There are no onscreen maps depicting the borders of these entities, not unambiguously, and there are no dialogue counts of star systems or other types of real estate.

That Romulans didn't send many ships to fight the Dominion doesn't mean they had fewer than the enemy. The British carefully avoided sending more aircraft to defend France when the situation there became hopeless in 1940; this should not be mistaken for meaning that there was a shortage of aircraft in Britain.

TNG - Galaxy Class> D'deridex Warbird

Doesn't seem like that when our heroes encounter those vessels. Sure, Romulans tend to send two to ensure a kill, but in TOS they sent three to five ships... One-on-one engagements are also typical, and at best Picard can hope for mutual destruction there.

Nemesis - Sovereign Class> Valdore Type Warbird

Based on what? The two never fought, or even postured against each other.

Timo Saloniemi

^^
1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!

2. Why would the Romulans only send a few ships to the front lines? The Dominion already outnumbered Starfleet, the Klingons and the Romulans combined. The Romulans would send most of their ships to the front lines because if they didn't win against the Dominion at the front lines, what good would their forces in their territory do against the Dominion. If the Dominion broke through and headed straight to Romulus, the Romulans would be destroyed.

3. The Sovereign class is obviously stronger than the Valdore type warbirds because of many reasons including armament. But in the battle against the Scimitar, those ships lasted what, like 5-6 minutes! Meanwhile the Enterprise took far more hits and only two sections of their shields which they regenerated thanks to superior Federation technology.

 

[BillJ]

Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.

 

[kgartm1185]

Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.

But he didn't want Picard alive towards the end of the story. He just wanted to kill everything on Earth.

 

[BillJ]

Shinzon didn't unload on the Enterprise because he needed Picard alive. He had no such concerns for the Romulan ships.

Sometimes you have to take story factors into the equation.

But he didn't want Picard alive towards the end of the story. He just wanted to kill everything on Earth.

And he then pounded the Enterprise to the point the self-destruct didn't work and if he hadn't wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, he would've taken her down quite easily.

Once you have a fish on the hook you don't play around, you reel it in.

 

[T'Girl]

1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!

The Federation admits new members who (supposedly) wish to enter the Federation. Entire regions would contain multiple intelligent warp cultures with no interest in the Federation. So there could be big gaps separating Federation members. The two Empires would observe no such admissions policy, pulling new "members'' into their Empires through conquest and colonization.

So the two Empires could in fact each be physically smaller in area, more compact, while at the same time having just as many star systems as the Federation. Equal amounts of resources.

The Klingons and the Cardassians share a border, on the map you (abundantly) displayed this would mean the Klingon Empire has to extend either over or under the Federation in order to accomplish this. So the Klingon Empire is bigger than this 2D map shows.

.

 

[kgartm1185]

1. The Federation spans 8,000 light years. Simply put, it is at least twice the size of the Romulan Star Empire or the size of the Klingon and Romulan Empires put together!

The Federation admits new members who (supposedly) wish to enter the Federation. Entire regions would contain multiple intelligent warp cultures with no interest in the Federation. So there could be big gaps separating Federation members. The two Empires would observe no such admissions policy, pulling new "members'' into their Empires through conquest and colonization.

So the two Empires could in fact each be physically smaller in area, more compact, while at the same time having just as many star systems as the Federation. Equal amounts of resources.

The Klingons and the Cardassians share a border, on the map you (abundantly) displayed this would mean the Klingon Empire has to extend either over or under the Federation in order to accomplish this. So the Klingon Empire is bigger than this 2D map shows.

.

You can't have as many star systems as the Federation if you don't encompass as much area. And the blue section includes all the planets that are part of the Federation and it is clear to anyone who possesses the ability to read that the Federation includes more planets than the Klingon or Romulan Empires.

 

[R. Star]

As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And your argument about the Warbirds being less powerful than the Sovereign really doesn't hold water either. Let's remember Shinzon's objectives in that battle. He wanted to capture Picard, so he had to be somewhat selective in his targeting. Not to hit a critical power system or anything. Not to mention his tendency to toy with Picard the entire movie. He could shoot to kill against the Romulans with none of these factors applying.

 

[kgartm1185]

As neat as that map is, unless you show me the episode it appears in... it doesn't count in regards to a canonical argument. T'Girl is right about the Klingons not sharing a border with Cardassia. Not only would they need a shared border to invade and hold worlds as they did in season 4 of DS9(unless you think the Federation that fought a conflict simultaneously with them just consented to supply lines through their space), there was the Betreka Nebula incident that Bashir and Garak discussed, a conflict between the Klingons and Cardassians that lasted 18 years.

And your argument about the Warbirds being less powerful than the Sovereign really doesn't hold water either. Let's remember Shinzon's objectives in that battle. He wanted to capture Picard, so he had to be somewhat selective in his targeting. Not to hit a critical power system or anything. Not to mention his tendency to toy with Picard the entire movie. He could shoot to kill against the Romulans with none of these factors applying.

Yeah, the Klingons and Cardassians did share a border but I don't really care if it is canon or not. The map looks realistic for being 2D.