Federation Utopia

[FredH]

Thanks for the Ronald D. Moore Klingon memo link; I’d never seen that.

. How do you define Utopian? Sticking their noses in everyone’s business, both culturally and militarily, forcing their way of life on all within their reach, or, that is, whatever way of life the current administration adheres to?.

Dunno, but I’d certainly define conquering other species at the point of a sword as the Klingons’ sticking their noses in other people’s business.

 

[Citiprime]

Qho said they were monsters? I'm asking for demonstration of reform. An evolution, if you excuse the term.

Forcing behavioral change does not promise success or even a change in belief or values.

In DS9's "The Way of the Warrior," Worf does say this:

WORF: The issue is not if there are any Founders on Cardassia. There are many Klingons who say we have been at peace too long, that the Empire must expand in order to survive. Fear of the Dominion has given my people an excuse to do what they were born to do. To fight and to conquer.

SISKO: If they're so eager to fight, who's to say they'll stop with the Cardassians.

KIRA: Their next target could be anyone. Even the Federation.

DAX: If I were you, I'd be more worried about Bajor. Think about it. What good would it do for the Klingons to defeat Cardassia, if they don't control the wormhole?

WORF: Agreed. If my people return to the old ways, no one will be safe.
​

That implies there were some reforms put in place as part of the peace established with the Federation, if they turned away from the "old ways."

 

[Arpy]

Thanks for the Ronald D. Moore Klingon memo link; I’d never seen that.


Dunno, but I’d certainly define conquering other species at the point of a sword as the Klingons’ sticking their noses in other people’s business.

True. I imagine the quality of life for the average Klingon being rather low in comparison to a member of the Federation. A death cult of sorts, where countless Klingons die in everything from wars to skirmishes to duels. My where their people might be if they didn’t waste so much of themselves.

But back to the earlier question, what would the subject races expect — those that actually wanted out, not those that feared being conquered by the neighboring Tholians, say. Would they expect the Federation launch a massive interstellar war with its greatest rival at the cost of billions of lives for their individual freedom? (Should the US go to war with China or Iran or North Korea for humanitarian reasons? Should China do the same with the US? Russia seems to be doing so to de-Nazi-fy Ukraine by their word.) Would those aliens do the same in the Federation’s place? Should the Federation begrudge them not?

It seems to me the Federation is doing the best it can, and achieving results, in a bad situation with problematic neighbors. There’s nothing un-utopian about that.

The waiting game may be what gets the best results for the Federation anyway. The Klingons have a thousand-year head start on the humans and other Federation members going into space. Maybe using Hur’q technology from when the Klingons were enslaved by vicious aliens themselves. …Maybe that’s why they became the way they are. Ditto the Founders.

But this over-reliance on war and their being outcompeted by the Federation in science will eventually leave the Klingons in the dust. The Federation will far outclass their ships and their economy will collapse in the attempt to compete. Maybe that’s what happened with Praxis anyway — they were getting desperate.

 

[FredH]

Eventually, probably. But it has to be said: From what we’ve seen, in the “classic” 23rd-24th-centuries period, the Klingons seem to be more powerful than the Federation in a couple of areas.

Militarily, we’ve seen four examples of periods of outright war between the the UFP and the Klingons. In one of them, the war that starts and stops in “Errand of Mercy”, we have no idea of who (if anyone) was ahead by the time the Organians stopped it. In the three others — two in “our” timeline (the war in *Discovery*, and the one in *Deep Space Nine*) and one in the “Yesterday’s Enterprise” timeline — in purely military terms, the Klingons were either shown or seen to be doing better than the Feds by the end, and only avoided actual victory due to story factors having little to do with the actual fighting.

Scientifically, well, turns out the Klingons are a whole lot more experienced with time travel than the Feds are, if the monks at Boreth are any indication.

I can buy that the Klingons get outcompeted eventually. But during this period, they are clearly no slouches, and are not only not outmatched by the Federation, but in a couple of ways are actually a bit more powerful.

 

[Arpy]

Militarily, we’ve seen four examples of periods of outright war between the the UFP and the Klingons. In one of them, the war that starts and stops in “Errand of Mercy”, we have no idea of who (if anyone) was ahead by the time the Organians stopped it. In the three others — two in “our” timeline (the war in *Discovery*, and the one in *Deep Space Nine*) and one in the “Yesterday’s Enterprise” timeline — in purely military terms, the Klingons were either shown or seen to be doing better than the Feds by the end, and only avoided actual victory due to story factors having little to do with the actual fighting.

They seemed evenly matched in the 23rd Century. Neither Kirk nor Kor seemed especially fearful of the other.

Deep Space Nine had a third of the Klingon fleet engaged in the Cardassian invasion and yet the station repelled the attack. Both Klingons and Federation had reinforcements on the way.

I don't remember the specifics of Discovery very well but the Feds had a bomb to destroy Kronos and a mycelial super ship that could see through cloaks and be anywhere in the galaxy in the twirl of a saucer.

For me "Yesterday's Enterprise" is the most damning. But who knows where the future might have gone? Maybe the Klingons lost as many or more of their ships to Starfleet as well but were used to sacrificing a lot – Russia in WWII? Plus in that timeline the Federation flagship was lost at Narendra III. Could it, 22 years ago, have been the ship that turned the tide in battle against the Klingons, butterfly-effecting a different future? ...I dunno, but I'm glad it wasn't an easy victory for the Federation. The Klingons haven't been scary for a long time. (Points to T'Kuvma & Co. eating Georgiou's body.)

Scientifically, well, turns out the Klingons are a whole lot more experienced with time travel than the Feds are, if the monks at Boreth are any indication.

Is that science or mysticism? Time crystals (forehead smacking Marvel stuff) basically work by being touched. By man or squirrel. That's it. No science to it.

Anyway, I'll see your time crystals (maybe there are a few at Daystrom Station next to Kirk's body) and raise you a Guardian of Forever.

 

[FredH]

They seemed evenly matched in the 23rd Century. Neither Kirk nor Kor seemed especially fearful of the other.

True.

Deep Space Nine had a third of the Klingon fleet engaged in the Cardassian invasion and yet the station repelled the attack. Both Klingons and Federation had reinforcements on the way.

The war is specifically referred to in dialogue as not going well for the Federation.

I don't remember the specifics of Discovery very well but the Feds had a bomb to destroy Kronos and a mycelial super ship that could see through cloaks and be anywhere in the galaxy in the twirl of a saucer.

Which did not stop the Klingon fleet from being visibly on Earth’s doorstep at the end.

For me "Yesterday's Enterprise" is the most damning. But who knows where the future might have gone? Maybe the Klingons lost as many or more of their ships to Starfleet as well but were used to sacrificing a lot – Russia in WWII? Plus in that timeline the Federation flagship was lost at Narendra III. Could it, 22 years ago, have been the ship that turned the tide in battle against the Klingons, butterfly-effecting a different future?

Anything might have happened, up to and including Q arbitrarily dropping by and changing the outcome; but based on Picard’s dialogue in the episode, the Federation was losing.

...I dunno, but I'm glad it wasn't an easy victory for the Federation. The Klingons haven't been scary for a long time. (Points to T'Kuvma & Co. eating Georgiou's body.)

I think there’s always been a tendency in Trek fandom (other than Klingon fandom, I guess) to assume that of course the Klingons aren’t really a threat to Starfleet, if it comes down to a straight-up fight. My point in these posts has been to suggest that in fact, in-universe, that was never the case, and the Klingons were always scary, even when they sometimes seemed like saps to us viewers.

Is that science or mysticism? Time crystals (forehead smacking Marvel stuff) basically work by being touched. By man or squirrel. That's it. No science to it.

Oh, it’s complete made-up bullshit, as far as real-world science is concerned (“Time crystals” are a thing, but they don’t do that), but it doesn’t matter: In-universe, it works, so it’s real, so it counts.

 

[jaehaerys48]

I think the assumed strength (or lack therefor of) on the part of the Klingons ultimately comes down to a mild breakdown in terms of what we are told and what we are shown. We are told that the Klingons are still on par with the Federation as of TNG (and even stronger, militarily, in Yesterday's Enterprise). What we are shown, on the other hand, is an Empire that largely comes off as politically weak (to the point where their leader comes running to a Federation captain of all people to figure out who is killing him) and technologically stagnant (people make fun of the Federation for using Mirandas forever, but the B'Rel seems to make up the bulk of the Klingon fleet near permanently). Star Trek VI very blatantly puts the Klingons in the position of the USSR at the end of the Cold War and in doing so more or less states "this is a declining empire." Outside of Yesterday's Enterprise the depiction of the Klingons in TNG mostly seems to confirm that.

The Klingons do come off as more impressive in DS9 than TNG, but, well, DS9 was never as popular as TNG.

I'll admit to a bit of personal bias: given how much the writers love to do "Federation in peril" storylines, I've always just dismissed the idea that the Federation is losing to the Klingons in Yesterday's Enterprise as not really vital canon. Star Trek contradicts itself so many times that I think getting hung up over single lines or even episodes is largely a pointless affair. That being said, it is something that is clearly stated on screen. If I were to rationalize it, I'd say that the Federation being on the back foot may just be a temporary situation, similar to the opening months of the Pacific front of WWII when Japan was beating the Allies seemingly everywhere. This however is just my own opinion, as I'm not really fond of writers repeatedly portraying the Federation as weak (IMO it undermines the core ideals of Star Trek).

 

[Arpy]

One other little thing was that the Starfleet losing in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was maybe 22 years behind scientifically from then the one we know. Less exploration and discovery of new metals, ancient technologies, new trading partners, new Federation members, etc. Conversely a Klingon fleet that mobilized its entire population in apocalyptic frenzy keeping with the death cult religion lead by the Chancellor. Who knows how many millions (billions?) were permitted to starve in the name of their fascist leader’s triumph.

 

[Sci]

You can't evolve without environmental stress. Even the weather on Earth is controlled. There is NO financial stress so you don't have any incentive to go and achieve that. Earth is boring and the inhabitants will slowly begin to die off of boredom.

By that logic, the children of rich people who have always and will always live in comfort no matter what they do would all be killing themselves or dying of boredom or overdosing. There certainly are always a few who struggle with that, but most of them do try to go out and accomplish something in the world to give their lives a sense of meaning and purpose. Why shouldn't everyone get the chance to chose their work for personal fulfillment rather than survival, the way the heirs of the elite do?

 

[fireproof78]

That implies there were some reforms put in place as part of the peace established with the Federation, if they turned away from the "old ways."

I would certainly hope so. One of my biggest detractions against TUC is the idea that the Federation needed to make multiple concessions, but there was no really discussion around the Klingons and their tendency to very cruel and expansionist in their efforts to find resources. There is acknowledgement of Kirk and others in Starfleet's wrong attitudes, probably due to the long conflict, but less acknowledging that the Klingons have done horrible things, have racist members, and are willing to enslave.