Federation Utopia

[Voodoowoman2]

For discussion.
1. IS Earth in the Federation really a Utopia? If so why?
2. If it is, are Utopias bad for us? Kirk seemed to think so.
I'll explain why I've read that Utopia is bad for us. Human beings aren't made for Utopia ( I'll define it as a society where every need and want is provided for practically free of effort work or charge). There is no stress, danger, hardship or challenge. Human beings are hard wired to want excitement, adventure, challenge. Dostoyevsky predicted at the turn of the last century that if placed in such an environment human beings would deliberately break Utopia so that something unexpected and crazy would happen. Because human beings don't want Utopian comfort and certainty. They want adventure and chaos and uncertainty and So that the very notion of a utopia was anti-human because we're not built for static utopia. We are built for a dynamic situation where there's Demands placed on us and where there's the optimal amount of uncertainty. I agree.
Many experiments have been done with mouse Utopias. Mice are placed in a perfect environment and let go. At first they eat and breed like mad. Then, population explosion and boredom set in. What follows is boredom, asexuality and eventually the death of every member of the population.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Utopia would be unbearably dull.

It's like the TZ episode "A Nice Place to Visit". A gangster is shot and killed, and awakes in what he believes is Heaven. He can have any woman he wants, he gambles like mad and wins all the time, and his every need is taken care of. Eventually he gets unbelievably bored with all this, decides he'd prefer hell, and asks to be taken to "the other place."

He is subsequently told that THIS IS THE OTHER PLACE.

 

[gweeps]

I always thought it completely unrealistic that another world war and whatever else happens would make humanity change its nature so drastically.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the Federation is only a Utopia in comparison to current day Earth. There is less poverty, less hunger, less crime, and less social discrimination. But perfect Humans in a perfect society? That's total bull. People still do bad things and selfish things at the expense of others. There are still people who are slighted and others who are favored. Perhaps much less so than today, but otherwise, the Federation's st still stinks too.

 

[jaehaerys48]

I don’t think Earth in Star Trek is a perfect utopia, just a much, much better society than Earth in the present day. People who get bored are the ones who go off to live in colonies or be frontier scientists or whatnot. I actually think this is a part of why the Maquis is a thing - on some level they enjoy the romantic struggle for life and death that most Federation citizens simply never have to deal with.

 

[Relayer1]

There is no stress, danger, hardship or challenge. Human beings are hard wired to want excitement, adventure, challenge.

Some humans, not all.

We're all different.

 

[Vger23]

I think they all buy into Earth as a "utopia," but I think it's used as a euphemism, even by the characters, for a world that is the best possible version of itself.

I don't think that means that everything and everyone is "perfect." That's stupid, unrealistic, and frankly lame. It's also not aligned with Kirk's frequent musings about how "man wasn't meant for paradise."

Star Trek's optimism is all about the fact that humanity as a species (not necessarily as individuals) managed to get beyond war, hatred, petty bs, etc and move forward to the stars. It isn't really about how everyone is just a boring, sanitized, virtuous automaton living in a perfect world.

 

[Timewalker]

I don’t think Earth in Star Trek is a perfect utopia, just a much, much better society than Earth in the present day. People who get bored are the ones who go off to live in colonies or be frontier scientists or whatnot. I actually think this is a part of why the Maquis is a thing - on some level they enjoy the romantic struggle for life and death that most Federation citizens simply never have to deal with.

The Maquis is a thing because a combination of hostile aliens and the bureaucratic arm of Starfleet combine to take their homes and alternatively perpetrate and ignore whatever violence the people experience when they instinctively fight back.

It's got nothing to do with a "romantic struggle."

Ask if any of the people in RL who are currently displaced from, or are stuck in, a war zone view the theft and/or destruction of their homes and deaths of the people fighting that think of it as a "romantic struggle" - I'd bet none of them do.

It's unrealistic to think that people would view it that way in a futuristic setting any more than they would in a RL setting.


Sometimes I wonder if the post-TOS captains all have to go through some sort of indoctrination to spout off about how "evolved" the Federation is, and how humanity has "progressed" past the desire to possess material goods, that nobody has or desires money, but rather works to "better themselves".

'Cause that isn't even supported by what we see in "Encounter at Farpoint." That hideous cloth that Beverly bought proves Picard wrong from the get-go.

 

[fireproof78]

IS Earth in the Federation really a Utopia? If so why?

In so far as it is better than current Earth, yes, it is a utopia. The basics are provided, people can pursue their interests and dreams without fear of survival. If they want more of a challenge then there are the colonies which are often times more dangerous, but present that adventure as well, so perhaps appealing to the "risk/reward" part of human nature.

I think the Federation is only a Utopia in comparison to current day Earth. There is less poverty, less hunger, less crime, and less social discrimination. But perfect Humans in a perfect society? That's total bull. People still do bad things and selfish things at the expense of others. There are still people who are slighted and others who are favored. Perhaps much less so than today, but otherwise, the Federation's st still stinks too.

Indeed and we see it at the upper levels of Starfleet leadership and some bureaucrats as well. It is nice in comparison, but there are still struggles. Otherwise Starfleet wouldn't even go out and explore but just sit around it's boarders, catalog anomalies and call it a day.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

I think the Federation is only a Utopia in comparison to current day Earth. There is less poverty, less hunger, less crime, and less social discrimination. But perfect Humans in a perfect society? That's total bull. People still do bad things and selfish things at the expense of others. There are still people who are slighted and others who are favored. Perhaps much less so than today, but otherwise, the Federation's st still stinks too.

But, that's not what Gene Roddenberry tells us 23rd century Earth is like. According to him humans have cast aside ALL their negative qualities, even children are no longer naughty! Humans don't feel envy, jealousy, anger....etc all these things must be psychoanalyzed out of them. This is what he said. Sooooo. I understand Kirk. No wonder he can't stand living on Earth as a desk jockey! Spock however, seemed fascinated with the idea of paradise.

 

[Kor]

I always thought it completely unrealistic that another world war and whatever else happens would make humanity change its nature so drastically.

If we go chronologically, the war itself and even the contact with the Vulcans wasn't enough to make humanity improve. The post-atomic horror with the draconian court from "Encounter at Farpoint" was happening after all that occurred.

Kor

 

[Arpy]

It depends on what you call utopia. Really. If it's a place where the excesses of our worst traits are systemically addressed and ameliorated, then yes it is. It's a place that looks like paradise and in which it's easy to be a saint. Where 'there is no hunger, no greed, and all the children know how to read.'

Beyond that, it is not "perfect" in the stagnant, antiseptic, oppressive, repressive, and suppressive way that are dystopias presented as utopias.

It is exciting and vital and good and generally a place that you would want to be...or it wouldn't be a utopia. Or it wouldn't be a place from which humanity evolves over eons to perhaps surpass even the Q, as was their concern in "Hide and Q."

If that isn't tantalizing, I don't know what is.

I mean, what would you, on your fancy computer or smartphone, well fed and generally healthy, educated, and safe, think is a better future for humanity, in keeping with our nature as you see it?

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, what would you, on your fancy computer or smartphone, well fed and generally healthy, educated, and safe, think is a better future for humanity, in keeping with our nature as you see it?

Better educated about parenting techniques. Humans suck at that, even in the future.

 

[Arpy]

Better educated about parenting techniques. Humans suck at that, even in the future.

But that's more "dramatic" so it's better.

 

[fireproof78]

But that's more "dramatic" so it's better.

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. Dramatic is definitely the truth though and certainly will bear out in any particular series.

But, humans still need to learn about parenting strategies and managing their own reactions to their children.

 

[Vger23]

I think it was made canon in a TNG S2 episode that this is the official anthem of United Earth:

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[Darth Thanos]

In "Prophet Motive" the Grand Nagus goes to the wormhole to meet the Prophets and know the future, but the Prophets do not like his greedy nature and turn him into a kind and charitable guy. And they wanted to do the same to Quark, who wanted to know what happened to the Nagus, but he stops them with a reverse-Federation speech. Greed may look like a "bad" thing on the surface, and Ferengi excel at it, but all sentient beings have it: for us corporeal beings it's the fuel that drives civilization itself. Without ambition (a desire to be in a better condition than we are now), without "greed", we would still be base primates collecting fruits from bushes.

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There's also a scene from some episode I can't recall, where Picard uses the Holodeck with safeties off to destroy some Borg drones. The woman with him said something, Picard replied the usual "Humans have evolved beyond petty desires like revenge", but she pointed that that's all crap: she saw his eyes while he attacked the drones, he was out for blood, he wanted to make them pay for what they did to him!

 

[C.E. Evans]

But, that's not what Gene Roddenberry tells us 23rd century Earth is like. According to him humans have cast aside ALL their negative qualities, even children are no longer naughty! Humans don't feel envy, jealousy, anger....etc all these things must be psychoanalyzed out of them. This is what he said.

What Roddenberry said and what we've actually seen are two different things. I'm by no means a Roddenberry-basher, but some of his comments don't hold up with what was actually shown. On the other hand, Roddenberry has also stated that people have flaws, that they make mistakes, and that it's part of being Human, so right there's a contradiction (shocking, I know).

 

[Timewalker]

What Roddenberry said and what we've actually seen are two different things. I'm by no means a Roddenberry-basher, but some of his comments don't hold up with what was actually shown. On the other hand, Roddenberry has also stated that people have flaws, that they make mistakes, and that it's part of being Human, so right there's a contradiction (shocking, I know).

There's a huge difference between the view of humanity that Roddenberry allowed Kirk to express and the saccharine (and hypocritical) view that he decreed Picard should express.

Kirk was a realist, and Picard lived in his own little bubble where he constantly patted himself on the back for being so "evolved" - while being annoyed that his crew bothered to save three people from the 20th century, cure their terminal illnesses, and (somewhat grudgingly) welcome them to life in the 24th century.

This was not a good look for Picard, Riker, or even Troi (who wasn't all that proactive in helping them adjust to waking up centuries later).

 

[Kor]

...
There's also a scene from some episode I can't recall, where Picard uses the Holodeck with safeties off to destroy some Borg drones. The woman with him said something, Picard replied the usual "Humans have evolved beyond petty desires like revenge", but she pointed that that's all crap: she saw his eyes while he attacked the drones, he was out for blood, he wanted to make them pay for what they did to him!

That would be the feature film Star Trek: First Contact.

Kor