federation economy.. plausible / beliveable?

[Kegek]

As noted, the idea is predicated on replicators.

Are replicators believable? Well, if they convert a given amount of mass into another thing of equal mess, then, well... I guess. All mass has therefore an equal value, and so there's no rarities to make purchases of.

Economy comes down to how often you use the replicator, like 'replicator rations' on VOY (the 'rations' being no doubt substituted for 'latinum' - and bam: The Ferengi economy). The difference between the Federation and the Ferengi may simply be accounted by privatized replicators in the former, and socialized replicators in the latter.

Replicators: The gimmick that makes a fully socialized state system kinda make sense. I guess.

 

[intrinsical]

Replicators is not the answer, or at best it is only a partial answer. You see, what Replicators enable is infinite-supply (or near infinite supply) economics for all physical goods.

The truth is that this infinite-supply economics is already happening in our current era of the Information Age. Information, especially digital information like documents, web pages, software, music and video can be easily and cheaply duplicated. Yet this infinite-supply economics has not lead to the formation of a Federation-like economy. The only thing that happened are citizen based movements such as the copyleft/open source/wikipedia/pirate bay share-alike initiatives.

It is true that the open source and wikipedia movements come quite close to the Federation-like economy where open source developers create software based on their own likes and dislikes. People submit Wikipedia articles on topics they are interested in. I can certainly envision a future with replicators, where culinary chefs will want to create the best replicated pecan pie or thanksgiving turkey. What I can't foresee is how these individual citizen based movements will definately lead to a Federation-like economy.

Also, what happen to things, such as the entire service industry, that can't be replicated and thus can never be part of the infinite-supply economy?

 

[bismarck_1892]

intrinsical said:
Replicators is not the answer, or at best it is only a partial answer.

Also, what happen to things, such as the entire service industry, that can't be replicated and thus can never be part of the infinite-supply economy?

The service industry is mechanized; something that the Trek TV makers are either too cheap, or not creative enough to put on screen.

The whole point of the Roddenberry future is that technology is the solution to many of humanities ills. In other words, the technology revolution of the Trek future has changed human lives like the industrial revolution or the microchip revolution changed our lives today.

 

[FordSVT]

intrinsical said:
Also, what happen to things, such as the entire service industry, that can't be replicated and thus can never be part of the infinite-supply economy?

A lot of people simply enjoy being in the service industry, especially for the social aspects. People enjoy the work of running their own businesses as well. There would still be a need for travel agents, lawyers, police, all kinds of service professions that are done by people who, under a different set of circumstances, would do these jobs for reasons other than money.

Maybe someone who really loves art but can't make a living off of it takes up a menial, boring job no one else wants in order to live in a decent area and have an apartment and food, etc. simply so that the rest of his time can be spent on art.

Examples?

Guinan, Sisko's father, that black waiter in the TNG episode "Lower Decks"...

Wait, is there a pattern here? PROOF THAT TREK IS RACIST!

 

[ktanner3]

The other is replicators. I don't think you could overstate the impact on society that being able to press a button and having virtually anything you want would bring.

Bingo. That is the key right there. With replicators that can create food and clothing, you eliminate poverty and third world countries right there.Without having to worry about making enough money for food and clothing, societies can concentrate more on a "fulfilling" life instead of how much they make to survive.

 

[Sci]

Humanity has had the capacity to end economic inequality, poverty, and world hunger for over a hundred years now.

While I don't for a second doubt that the idea of a future in which poverty and hunger have been eliminated, and in which everyone has a genuinely equal opportunity for economic achievement, the idea of a completely equal distribution of goods, and of complete economic equality -- to say nothing of the idea of the end of scarcity -- is unrealistic. Replicators wouldn't solve everything -- there'd be the question of finding the raw matter which wich to replicate things, there'd be the question of generating power, there'd be the question of who owns the computer programs that run replicators, there'd be the question of who owns the specific programs to create an individual item, there'd be the question of how those programs would be generated, there'd be the question of replicator manufacture, there'd be the question of what sorts of limits might be placed upon replicators (to ensure, for instance, that someone couldn't just replicate a copy of the Mona Lisa and pass it off as the real thing), there'd be the question of whether or not certain drugs could be created in a replicator, there'd be the question of whether or not certain types of weapons could be created, there'd be the question of legal liability if a faulty replicator pattern produced, say, food that was poisonous....

 

[MarianLH]

Sci said:
Humanity has had the capacity to end economic inequality, poverty, and world hunger for over a hundred years now.

Making it possible and making it push-button easy are two different things. It's possible for me to become a world class virtuoso piano player...but we'll probably end poverty first.

Replicators wouldn't solve everything -- there'd be the question of finding the raw matter which wich to replicate things

Just in the asteroid belt are an estimated three billion billion tons of matter, capable of sustainably supporting a population of 7500 trillion people. Source: Princeton University Conference on Space Manufacturing Facilities, 1975.

, there'd be the question of generating power,

The sun puts out 3.5 x 10^27 kilowatt hours per year. Assuming a 50% conversion efficiency and assuming a gap of one solar diameter on the plane of the ecliptic (so that sunlight to the planets isn't blocked), solar panels near the sun could convert 47.5% of that into electricity. That could systain five billion billion humans at the rate of consumption of the average American.

Mercury would be an ideal source for the raw materials to build them, and a good place to put solar powered cyclotrons for the manufacturing of antimatter.

there'd be the question of who owns the computer programs that run replicators,

Went open source in 2321; some hippie put it on the internet.

there'd be the question of who owns the specific programs to create an individual item,

Vector in the Trek Art forum is not getting paid for the hundreds of hours he spends on his CG Star Trek models.

And so on, and so on...

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Is such a future possible? Maybe. Not yes, not no, maybe. No one has the foresight to truly say otherwise.


Marian

 

[DarthTom]

There is nothing whatsoever realistic about the way the economy is supposed to function according to Trek dogma:

*In the future apparently human nature has changed and we've become unselfish and no longer covet what we cannot have defying 10,000 years of human history that says otherwise. Yea right.

*Apparently trade has de-evolved into a barter system based on a rare substance called "latinum."

*Apparently some people choose the life long profession of being a waiter.

 

[Timo]

Umm, the system does not require unselfishness at all. Rather, it caters for ultimate selfishness.

And it would be realistic to assume that trade devolves to barter when incompatible markets collide. If there is ever going to be interstellar trade (let alone with aliens!), that's a very likely way for it to take place.

The internal markets of the UFP obviously do not feature latinum or barter or anything as trivially identifiable as that. Indeed, they are completely hidden from our view - which is another likely future development, because increasing automation of economy is efficient and convenient.

Also, there's nothing explicitly lifelong about Trek professions. Again, that sounds like a realistic prediction, even for the near future: with good education and labor pool management systems, people would be employed in one profession for a few months, in another for a year, in yet another for three weeks, and so forth. The system would quickly sift out the people who have enough passion to educate themselves for certain demanding professions, while constantly keeping the world supplied with waiters, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarthTom]

Timo said:
Umm, the system does not require unselfishness at all. Rather, it caters for ultimate selfishness.

The economics of the federation to by real would require a complete lack of scarcity of everything including land. And as we know there is scarcity within certain types of medicines and other objects that are rare.

People make the erroneous assumption the replication technology fixes the scarcity problem - it does not.

I'll give you an example on DS9 that I ran into the other day. If you recall Jake Sisko wanted to purchase a rare baseball card for his father but cannot because he doesn't have 'latinum' to trade - only Nog does. Items like the card would still require barter and trade.

 

[intrinsical]

To sum it up, Replicators would help but by itself does not bring about a Federation-like way of living.

There would still be things that are scarce. Eg, the service industry would forever be limited by the limited number of willing workers, certain items for whatever reasons would never be replicable (Jake's baseball card, liquid latinum). And when there are scarce resources, there will continue to be competition over such resources inspite of replicator technology.

Human's competitive nature cannot be changed by replicator technology alone. Even so, I believe that replicator tech is part of the solution because it alleviates scarcity on a huge range of physical resources. Question is, what else is needed to bring about the Federation utopia?

 

[DarthTom]

intrinsical said:
To sum it up, Replicators would help but by itself does not bring about a Federation-like way of living.

There would still be things that are scarce. Eg, the service industry would forever be limited by the limited number of willing workers, certain items for whatever reasons would never be replicable (Jake's baseball card, liquid latinum). And when there are scarce resources, there will continue to be competition over such resources inspite of replicator technology.

Exactly. The best modern example we have is electricity changed the way humans existed and made things possible heretofore unimaginable. And it allowed humans to live in 'luxury' like never before. But despite that fact, electricity didn't fundamentally change human nature and that certain things and property have inherent sacarsity that replicator technology cannot replace.

Another example is of course food. It appears as though while replicators can make close to tasting real cooked food they don't get it quite right. Akin I suppose to microwaved food versus hand prepared food.

Human's competitive nature cannot be changed by replicator technology alone. Even so, I believe that replicator tech is part of the solution because it alleviates scarcity on a huge range of physical resources. Question is, what else is needed to bring about the Federation utopia?

Some of the problems inherent in undesirable labor and the shortages created by people unwilling in engaging in it, could be solved through enslaving holograms I suppose which is part of Voyager canon that they are used to 'clean warp conduits.'

That still fails to solve the scarcity problems with certain coveted objects.

 

[FPAlpha]

DarthTom said:
There is nothing whatsoever realistic about the way the economy is supposed to function according to Trek dogma:

*In the future apparently human nature has changed and we've become unselfish and no longer covet what we cannot have defying 10,000 years of human history that says otherwise. Yea right.

*Apparently trade has de-evolved into a barter system based on a rare substance called "latinum."

*Apparently some people choose the life long profession of being a waiter.

You can't compare our reality with Trek reality.. Trek assumes that we got past our attitude and evolved socially.

That is the whole basis of its economy and it could work. Socialism can work but not nowadays because we are not ready to give up our endless fight to better ourselves and that can only happen when someone loses out to us.

In Trek technology is the great equalizer.. basic (and not so basic) needs are covered by replicators and free housing. That alone removes the need to have a job to pay for these.

Now there are jobs that still need to be done and we prefer them to be done by humans.. for example waiting on guests in restaurants.

I think there are people who just like to make people happy by serving them food and being good hosts.. much like cooks would like to prepare food for guests. Seeing people delighted at the service and the food may be enough reward for them.

It may not be understandable for us but in theory i could see that happen.

 

[DarthTom]

FPAlpha said:
It may not be understandable for us but in theory i could see that happen.

No it could not. Because Trek 'economics' wants to eat it's proverbial cake and have it too. They want to pretend that humans of today are the same humans of the future, denying 10,000 years of human history of greed that despite technological improvements and substantial changes in our 'life style' hasn't changed the fact that we're greedy son's of bitches that covet what we cannot have.

And so long as scarcity exists - and we know it does in Trek - no such society will despite the magical world of 'replicator' technology.

Sorry - it's a mythical world of humans of the future who don't possess human qualities any longer.

 

[Timo]

If you recall Jake Sisko wanted to purchase a rare baseball card for his father but cannot because he doesn't have 'latinum' to trade - only Nog does. Items like the card would still require barter and trade.

To be sure, this would actually be a prime example of what happens today all over the world: US Navy vouchers or traveler's cheques aren't valid currency for purchasing rare commodities abroad.

Doesn't mean Jake would ever get involved in barter within the confines of the UFP economy. Only goes to show that the interface between the UFP economy and the Ferengi one is not invisible to the user.

We know people within the UFP economy readily trade in rarities (in the late 23rd century, after Kirk has already declared his folks don't have/use money, they are said to buy boats and sell mountain cabins). We just don't know what technicalities are involved in the transaction. Doing away with the concept of using or possessing money would be no more complex than doing away with physical cash, really - it could be done within the confines of a capitalist cutthroat economy, or a socialist command one, or whatever, just provided that advanced communications and computing systems would be available. Money could still exist pretty much as today, in a highly automated form, even if the consumer never used or possessed it in the conventional sense.

I really don't see where any of this requires the abandoning of greed, want or scarsity. All we really see happening on screen is the availability of basic commodities of life without cash payment, and possibly without any sort of payment at all (every military worth the name today has that, so why not Starfleet?), and the unhesitating use of more conventional trade (barter, currency, servitude, blackmail) outside the realm of basic commodities or the sheltering UFP economic umbrella.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarthTom]

Timo said:
I really don't see where any of this requires the abandoning of greed, want or scarsity. All we really see happening on screen is the availability of basic commodities of life without cash payment, and possibly without any sort of payment at all (every military worth the name today has that, so why not Starfleet?), and the unhesitating use of more conventional trade (barter, currency, servitude, blackmail) outside the realm of basic commodities or the sheltering UFP economic umbrella.

Timo Saloniemi

You miss the point. If you plucked someone out midevil Europe and plopped them into a two bedroom apartment in [name your city] that had running water, electricity, toilets, easy access to food and basic living items, easy access to medical care, television etc. from their point of view they would be living in a world suddenly that was without need, greed, disease etc.

However, all of our modern conveniences has failed in thousands of years for humans to not covet what they don't or cannot have.

And it is canon that sarcity exists in Trek.

 

[Timo]

I don't see any "point" to that, certainly not as relates to economy.

Obviously each and every Trek character covets what they don't or can't have - that's why most of them are adventurers by profession. However, that doesn't affect the economics of the world they live in: truly free lunches are provided for by the modern technology, and the things that go beyond the capabilities of that technology are not shown to be of significant interest to the characters. Today's economy does not hinge on the greed for 150ft luxury yachts, either.

The simplest way to describe the life of a UFP citizen as shown would indeed probably be one of people living in luxury apartments and whatnot on unlimited business account - unlimited because even the greatest expenditures imaginable would be an infinitesimally small part of the business. The "real" economy of that business might be cutthroat capitalist, or hardline communist, or enightened fascist, or something else - but the consumer would never see any of it, nor would he have a need to. In today's capitalism, the general consumer market drives the economy. But that is a rare situation in the history of economics, and the general consumer might have been removed from the equation by the 24th century of Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[erastus25]

It seems to me that the federation would have to recognize some forms of money in order to interact with other species. For instance, it'd be a lot easier to offer the Ferengi latinum than to barter goods.

As for the menial labor point mentioned above, we see examples of holograms mining in Voyager so apparently the goal is to automate all such things.

 

[DarthTom]

Timo said:
I don't see any "point" to that, certainly not as relates to economy.

Because so long as scarcity exists so will people who covet things that are scarce. This ain't rocket science.

In today's capitalism, the general consumer market drives the economy. But that is a rare situation in the history of economics, and the general consumer might have been removed from the equation by the 24th century of Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

We are a 'consumer market driven economy' because people chase what they cannot have. Replicator technology does not end scarcity it just makes less things scarce as did running water and electricity circling back to my example.

Edited to add: Your premise is based on a faulty one, that being there will be some fundamental change in the innate human desire to have what we cannot. 10,000 year of human history and huge technological advancements beguile your argument.

 

[Timo]

I still can't make heads or tails of what you are saying.

How does scarcity of rarities or an innate greed in human nature relate to

1) the removal of monetary transactions as an element of consumer economics,

2) the provision of everyday needs at such low cost that in practice a truly free lunch is provided, and

3) the completely free movement of labor between locations and professions, and the associated emphasis on working for enjoyment,

which seem to be the three observable elements of the Federation economy? All that could be true today (and partially is already), if we had 1) computers, 2) replicators and 3) transporters of the sort described in Trek. There is nothing "fundamental" about any of that - it's all a bunch of technical refinements only.

Greed has not gone away from the Trek mankind. It has simply ceased to be an overriding element of the consumer market. Which is what is happening today in limited sectors of life. All we see is expansion to encompass the entire population, and it's very difficult to see why such an expansion would be forbidden, or even limited in scope.

Timo Saloniemi