Federation Alarm in a Borg ship?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The thing is, the reason the Borg in FC were assimilating the crew was because their cube had been destroyed, there were only a handful of them, and they needed to replenish their numbers. The mistake Voyager made was assuming that assimilation was the norm rather than an exception. VGR even made the bizarre claim that the Borg don't reproduce, only assimilate -- which doesn't make any sense. How can they add a species' biological distinctiveness to their own if all their drones of that species die out in a single lifetime and aren't replaced? Not to mention that relying entirely on assimilation would be too inefficient and slow a method of building or maintaining their numbers, the same way that a hunter-gatherer subsistence is far less able to sustain a large population than agriculture is.

Hypothetical, if the remenants of "The Borg" gain the Genetic Engineering & Cloning Tech that the Founders had for manufacturing in large scale of "Jem Hadar". Let's assume that "The Borg Queen" that JLP destroyed in ST:PIC wasn't "The Last Borg Queen", but there was another one out in the Delta/Gamma Quadrant trying to attain Founder Tech and they manage to do it.

How terrifying would a army of "Jem Hadar Borgs" be with "Individuality", but genetically & technologically enforced loyalty/devotion to "The Collective", especially given the Clone/Birth/Growth rate of Jem Hadar along with their quick learning capability and "The Borg's" technological might? One that didn't need "Ketra Cel White" anymore.

 

[publiusr]

I chalk it up to a vestigial mental hold over.
I watched video footage where thieves sometimes shut the doors behind them…shoplifters zip purses back up after removing checkbooks—not all, but why?

I have this feeling that, when the Borg were first introduced, they did not have a Queen…who in my head canon was a researcher very like Seven’s parents…except she was an expert in insects and allowed herself to be (partly) assimilated—and wound up running the joint Davros style.

There are spiders who *look* like ants, after all.

Once in her own private matrix—you start to see hiccups work their way in…blind spots. Ghosting, you may call it.

Engineer-drones put klaxons in cubes—because that’s what you do when you build starships.

Then (and only then) might rescues of Picard and Seven become possible.

I have this feeling that if I were to put a facehugger in an early Borg cube—it would not do much.

Later on, I could see a whole cube answering to a different Queen…drones accepting parasites as easily as their mental playground also introduced by a Borg queen perhaps. She-not Picard—brought down the Collective.

Being a more average individual, she might play with her drones when bored. That might allow further openings. I might have the original Queen be an El-Aurian.

This explanation opens up story ideas…the hive throwing off the queens and becoming a greater threat, say…especially mirror Borg, who may get tired of their intendant.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Last week when I was watching VOY episode Dark Frontier,I suddenly noticed that the alarm sounded in the Borg Probe when Voy beamed a torpedo into it was identical to the alarm sound played in the TNG episode All Good Things,when Pasteur suffered from a warp core breach.

Are there any in-universe explanation for the identical alarm presented in two totally different factions?

Universal translator mate - turns out it is a little overzealous and converts any sound without filter to your brain’s most familiar equivalent.

Joking aside - watched Civil Defence today and the computer speaks in a Federation voice whereas I’d have expected a hidden Cardassian subroutine to put alerts out in their usual computer “voice”. Makes sense that the UT doesn’t simply change words but also accents/tone to the most easily understood style for each user

 

[The Wormhole]

watched Civil Defence today and the computer speaks in a Federation voice whereas I’d have expected a hidden Cardassian subroutine to put alerts out in their usual computer “voice”.

???
According to Memory Alpha and IMDB, that was Judi Durand's Cardassian Computer Voice in Civil Defense and not Majel Barrett's Federation Computer Voice.

 

[Weyoun 251]

???
According to Memory Alpha and IMDB, that was Judi Durand's Cardassian Computer Voice in Civil Defense and not Majel Barrett's Federation Computer Voice.

Then I apologise for talking some top quality absolute bollocks.

You are reading someone who didn’t realise until about 6 months ago that Marina Sirtiss’ accent in early TNG leant into her Greek heritage to make it sound exotic/alien

Because the computer was female and “pleasant” in tone I heard it as MB’s voice I guess - also potential a Mandela effect where in my brain Cardassian computers were male and authoritative

Appreciate the correction though mate - even if it does kind of skewer my UT theory (grumble grumble bastard grumble grumble ;p )

 

[David cgc]

Joking aside - watched Civil Defence today and the computer speaks in a Federation voice whereas I’d have expected a hidden Cardassian subroutine to put alerts out in their usual computer “voice”. Makes sense that the UT doesn’t simply change words but also accents/tone to the most easily understood style for each user

Though, IIRC, in "Civil Defense" O'Brien and Sisko's combadges made the Bajoran sound effect and not the Starfleet one, so it is on-topic.

 

[Lord Exor]

No, not at first. In First Contact, it was clear the the entire Collective spoke through the Queen -- "I am the Borg." She wasn't a monarch, but more by analogy with an insect queen, extending the hive-mind metaphor. The hive behaves as a single organism, and the queen is the nexus it revolves around. Really, the point of the Queen was simply to give the Collective a face and a voice for the sake of giving the movie a traditional villain.

It was only in later Voyager episodes and in Picard that writers misunderstood and approached her more as a leader or an individual subjugating others to her will. But even Voyager made it clear that the Queen is just one more piece of the machine like any drone, because when the Queen was killed (as in BOBW, FC, or "Dark Frontier"), she was reconstituted. Clearly the "Queen" is software that runs in a succession of replaceable physical bodies. The Queen is like the frontal lobe of the brain, an integral part that's responsible for coordinating and directing the activity of the other parts.

But yes, even in FC, it was a change in the storytelling approach, at least. But that was a continuation of the change that started in BOBW. The original concept of the Borg in "Q Who" was that they were completely impersonal, that they had no interest in people, only technology. They were cosmic horror, an entity so vast and powerful that we were in danger of being trampled underfoot because they took no notice of our presence. But you can't tell that many stories about an impersonal threat, so they immediately started to add personal angles -- first they arbitrarily change tactics and target an individual to assimilate as a spokesperson, then a drone is liberated and develops an individual personality, then the Collective is anthropomorphized in the Queen, etc. And eventually it reached the point of the Queen being portrayed as a cackling supervillain ordering her minions around.

About a month late here, apologies, but it's a major fan misconception that Voyager misinterpreted the Queen character as "originally conceived" in FC. Brannon Braga, who co-created the Queen, wouldn't be misinterpreting his own creation. The statement "I am the Borg" references the Collective being an extension of this character, not the other way around. That's why she was written this way on Voyager, and later Picard. The writers always saw her this way, but we've had this conversation before haven't we?

 

[Christopher]

About a month late here, apologies, but it's a major fan misconception that Voyager misinterpreted the Queen character as "originally conceived" in FC. Brannon Braga, who co-created the Queen, wouldn't be misinterpreting his own creation.

Maybe, except it wasn't solely him. FC was written by Ron Moore and Braga, with Rick Berman as producer and co-plotter. Braga was the most junior of three joint creators on FC, so it's a factual error to call it "his own creation." If you're the lowest-ranking member of a collaboration, your ideas won't necessarily be the ones that win out. (It's bizarre to me how many people want to give Braga exclusive credit for everything he had a hand in, when his entire career is defined by being a collaborator rather than an auteur. Every show he's ever run has been either someone else's creation or, less frequently, his co-creation with someone else. He's never really had a distinctive creative vision of his own; his strength as a producer is in executing other creators' ideas.)

Besides, speaking as a writer myself, I can assure you from personal experience that it is entirely possible for a writer to misinterpret one's own creations, because we have fallible memories and sometimes we forget what we intended the first time.

The statement "I am the Borg" references the Collective being an extension of this character, not the other way around.

No, the statement means it's both, and neither.

DATA: Greetings. I am curious, do you control the Borg collective?
BORG QUEEN: You imply disparity where none exists. I am the collective.
DATA: Perhaps I should rephrase the question. I wish to understand the organisational relationship. Are you their leader?
BORG QUEEN: I bring order to chaos.

The Queen overtly rejected the interpretation that she's above or in control of the Collective. In her own words, no disparity exists. That's what a hive mind is. Every individual is an equal part of the whole. It's cloud computing, a single consciousness distributed through every component brain at the same time. Attempting to impose human concepts of hierarchy on it, as Data did, is a category error. Which neuron in your brain is the leader? Obviously, none of them. Or all of them at once.

 

[Lord Exor]

Maybe, except it wasn't solely him. FC was written by Ron Moore and Braga, with Rick Berman as producer and co-plotter. Braga was the most junior of three joint creators on FC, so it's a factual error to call it "his own creation." If you're the lowest-ranking member of a collaboration, your ideas won't necessarily be the ones that win out. (It's bizarre to me how many people want to give Braga exclusive credit for everything he had a hand in, when his entire career is defined by being a collaborator rather than an auteur. Every show he's ever run has been either someone else's creation or, less frequently, his co-creation with someone else. He's never really had a distinctive creative vision of his own; his strength as a producer is in executing other creators' ideas.)

Besides, speaking as a writer myself, I can assure you from personal experience that it is entirely possible for a writer to misinterpret one's own creations, because we have fallible memories and sometimes we forget what we intended the first time.




No, the statement means it's both, and neither.

DATA: Greetings. I am curious, do you control the Borg collective?
BORG QUEEN: You imply disparity where none exists. I am the collective.
DATA: Perhaps I should rephrase the question. I wish to understand the organisational relationship. Are you their leader?
BORG QUEEN: I bring order to chaos.

The Queen overtly rejected the interpretation that she's above or in control of the Collective. In her own words, no disparity exists. That's what a hive mind is. Every individual is an equal part of the whole. It's cloud computing, a single consciousness distributed through every component brain at the same time. Attempting to impose human concepts of hierarchy on it, as Data did, is a category error. Which neuron in your brain is the leader? Obviously, none of them. Or all of them at once.

You're injecting your own bias into this appraisal of the line. Again. And you're right, the Queen isn't just their leader. All Borg are her. She is the Borg, but as we see even in the movie, she's not an avatar. The Collective exists as an extension of this person like your body is an extension of your mind, responding to its commands while simultaneously having distinct biological processes--hence her brainwashed horde not always operating with her direct input, but always in her interest. She has her own unique goals beyond the profile of a single-minded collective consciousnes. This is expounded upon by other writers much later in Picard, but the original team was on the same wavelength.

Moreover, I didn't ever claim that Braga had sole creative input on the Queen. It just so happens that his collaborator, Ron Moore, likewise conceived of the Queen as an individual unique person based on his own testimony. Braga, clearly in parity here, shared the same interpretation and persisted with this take while overseeing Voyager.

The "cackling supervillain" take that reached its zenith with Picard had its blueprints in FC as well. She wasn't trying to assimilate humanity on instinct, she was taking pleasure in "ending their future" while simultaneously hamming it up.

 

[at Quark's]

Simply a question of cultural drift.

When I look in my neighbourhood, I find restaurants of all different cuisines. Asian, Mexican, Western, you name it.

I guess this is something similar. Why wouldn't the Borg or Klingons simply adopt an alert sound they like ?

 

[Christopher]

You're injecting your own bias into this appraisal of the line.

If by "bias" you mean "prior knowledge of how a hive consciousness is defined as depicted in decades of previous science fiction," you're right. I have a strong bias in favor of objective fact and precedent over belief and assumptions.

Again. And you're right, the Queen isn't just their leader. All Borg are her. She is the Borg, but as we see even in the movie, she's not an avatar. The Collective exists as an extension of this person like your body is an extension of your mind

Except "this person" is replaceable. The Queen is killed several times -- in BOBW (by retcon), in FC, in "Dark Frontier," in "Endgame" -- and replaced every time. That proves that the Queen is simply one more interchangeable component part in the Collective, a software protocol that can be run on multiple bodies. The process by which the Collective generates new Queens and downloads the software into their bodies was depicted several times in the novels, and Paramount/CBS approved every one of those depictions, proving that those depictions are consistent with the studio's interpretation of the Queen's nature. If your interpretation were correct, the studio would have instructed the novelists to portray it that way. But they didn't.

The Collective is the person. That's what a hive mind is. The Borg are not a species, they are a single individual consciousness running as cloud software in the minds of every drone simultaneously. The Queen is simply a way to anthropomorphize that consciousness for dramatic convenience.

She has her own unique goals beyond the profile of a single-minded collective consciousnes. This is expounded upon by other writers much later in Picard, but the original team was on the same wavelength.

Oh? Have you interviewed the original team and asked them whether they agree with you? If not, you have no right to assert that as a fact.

And the Queen as depicted in Picard is not comparable at all, because that was a Queen whose Collective had been destroyed, who did exist as an individual for the first time. Which could explain why she was written so badly in Picard, as a cackling melodrama villain. Picard's approach was an amplification of the worst habits that befell Voyager's writers in their later depictions of the Queen, dumbing her down from the original conception to just another interchangeable evil leader twirling her mustache.

Moreover, I didn't ever claim that Braga had sole creative input on the Queen. It just so happens that his collaborator, Ron Moore, likewise conceived of the Queen as an individual unique person based on his own testimony.

And again you're ignoring what the dialogue in FC actually says. "You imply disparity where none exists."

 

[The Wormhole]

It's bizarre to me how many people want to give Braga exclusive credit for everything he had a hand in,

Not nearly as bizarre as the people who give him credit for things he had absolutely no involvement in, like DS9, Insurrection, Nemesis and even Erik Jendresen's proposed Star Trek The Beginning movie.

 

[Christopher]

Not nearly as bizarre as the people who give him credit for things he had absolutely no involvement in, like DS9, Insurrection, Nemesis and even Erik Jendresen's proposed Star Trek The Beginning movie.

I've always found it deeply ironic that Braga's harshest critics are so eager to exaggerate his importance and ignore the contributions of his collaborators. But then, I see the same pattern with people who criticize J.J. Abrams for what they dislike about The Force Awakens and ignore that that movie was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

 

[Lord Exor]

If by "bias" you mean "prior knowledge of how a hive consciousness is defined as depicted in decades of previous science fiction," you're right. I have a strong bias in favor of objective fact and precedent over belief and assumptions.




Except "this person" is replaceable. The Queen is killed several times -- in BOBW (by retcon), in FC, in "Dark Frontier," in "Endgame" -- and replaced every time. That proves that the Queen is simply one more interchangeable component part in the Collective, a software protocol that can be run on multiple bodies. The process by which the Collective generates new Queens and downloads the software into their bodies was depicted several times in the novels, and Paramount/CBS approved every one of those depictions, proving that those depictions are consistent with the studio's interpretation of the Queen's nature. If your interpretation were correct, the studio would have instructed the novelists to portray it that way. But they didn't.

The Collective is the person. That's what a hive mind is. The Borg are not a species, they are a single individual consciousness running as cloud software in the minds of every drone simultaneously. The Queen is simply a way to anthropomorphize that consciousness for dramatic convenience.




Oh? Have you interviewed the original team and asked them whether they agree with you? If not, you have no right to assert that as a fact.

And the Queen as depicted in Picard is not comparable at all, because that was a Queen whose Collective had been destroyed, who did exist as an individual for the first time. Which could explain why she was written so badly in Picard, as a cackling melodrama villain. Picard's approach was an amplification of the worst habits that befell Voyager's writers in their later depictions of the Queen, dumbing her down from the original conception to just another interchangeable evil leader twirling her mustache.





And again you're ignoring what the dialogue in FC actually says. "You imply disparity where none exists."

Are we citing explicitly non-canonical novels again? And making assumptions about a work based on "what's been done in science fiction" (as if that means anything here) while ignoring what the actual text has to say to fit your very non-canonical narrative of what the Borg are? Ignoring every line of dialogue, every context clue, every event in each show that firmly disproves your argument? Authorial intent shouldn't be cited either, but even that should clue you in on what was being considered behind the scenes.

My "interpretation" isn't an interpretation, because that's literally what's shown in the works, both visually and through dialogue. Characters only make reference to ONE Queen in both Voyager and Picard as a particular character barring time travel Jurati shenanigans. Picard tells us unequivocally that the Borg are an extension of the Queen in S2 and S3, and bases this off of preceding textual evidence in FC and Voyager. The Borg are an authoritarian hierarchical construct with linked minds and brainwashed constituents. "Cybernetic authoritarianism." The Queen in S3 is not "a" Queen, she's "the" Queen. This is what the show is conveying to us, and you know that. This takes precedent over what was written in those licensed fan fiction novels that didn't even try to maintain continuity with themselves. If they wanted to tell us something else about the Borg, they would have. If they wanted to show that the Queen is some redundant avatar, they would have--but they didn't. They always said otherwise.

SEVEN: This hub connects with thousands of transwarp conduits with end points in all four quadrants. It allows the Collective to deploy vessels almost anywhere in the galaxy within minutes.
TUVOK: Of all the Borg's tactical advantages, this could be the most significant.
CHAKOTAY: It's no wonder the Queen didn't want us in that nebula.
JANEWAY: So how do we destroy it?
SEVEN: The structure is supported by a series of interspatial manifolds. If we could disable enough of them, theoretically the hub would collapse.
ADMIRAL: This is a waste of time. The shielding for those manifolds is regulated from the central nexus by the Queen herself. You might be able to damage one of them, maybe two. But by the time you moved onto the third, she'd adapt.
JANEWAY: There may be a way to bring them down simultaneously.
ADMIRAL: From where, inside the hub? Voyager would be crushed like a bug.
CHAKOTAY: What about taking the conduit back to the Alpha Quadrant and then destroying the structure from the other side?
ADMIRAL: This hub is here. There's nothing in the Alpha Quadrant but exit apertures. While you're all standing around dreaming up fantasy tactical scenarios, the Queen is studying her scans of our armour and weapons. And she's probably got the entire Collective working on a way to counter them. So take the ship back into that nebula and go home before it's too late.
JANEWAY: Find a way to destroy that hub. Let's take a walk.

SEVEN: It was the Borg Queen. She wanted to make sure I'd be able to deliver a message. She said she'd assimilate Voyager if we attempted to re-enter the nebula.
JANEWAY: Why is it so important to her?
ADMIRAL: It doesn't matter. She's not going to be able to make good on her threat.
JANEWAY: I wish I shared your confidence.
ADMIRAL: You would if you'd had as much experience with the Queen as I have.
JANEWAY: It was one thing to attempt this when we thought it was a secret but if the Borg are monitoring us.
ADMIRAL: There's no guarantee they won't try to assimilate Voyager even if we don't go back into the nebula.
EMH: Is that supposed to be reassuring?
ADMIRAL: I'm not saying the Borg aren't dangerous, but from my perspective, they're thirty years behind the times.

BARCLAY: Ladies and gentlemen, meet the Borg.
(A hologram of a drone appears.)
BARCLAY: Over the course of this term, you're going to become intimately familiar with the Collective. You'll learn about the assimilation process, the Borg hierarchy, and the psychology of the hive mind. And when it comes to your performance in this class, my expectations are going to be no different than the Borg Queen herself. Perfection. This semester, we are very fortunate to have a special guest lecturer. The woman who literally wrote the book on the Borg. Admiral Kathryn Janeway.
JANEWAY: Thank you, Commander. I'm glad to be here. A question already, cadet?
CADET: I suppose it could wait until after class, Admiral.
JANEWAY: As they say in the Temporal Mechanics Department, there's no time like the present.
CADET: In the year 2377, you aided the Borg resistance movement known as Unimatrix Zero.
BARCLAY: Sounds like someone's been reading ahead.
JANEWAY: I thought you had a question, Cadet.
CADET: Yes, ma'am. When you informed the Queen that you were going to liberate thousands of her drones, could you describe the look on her face?

PICARD: I came close to killing everyone I knew. Everyone I loved! You don't know what it is to be controlled by them. What she can make you do.

JURATI: Did you have access when you were part of the collective?

PICARD: Yes. I felt an intense euphoria, but no sense of my existence. Just her.

And canonically, the Queen is a cackling cartoon supervillain too. Her personality didn't really change because it doesn't matter if the hive is destroyed, it's the same person. She isn't a drone. Old books that the license holder ignores--and has always ignored--will never change that either.

To be clear, I don't ever begrudge any fan for taking issue with a work. If you don't like what happened to the Borg, that's perfectly valid. But why discuss an opinion on what you think the Borg should be as if it's some kind of acknowledged fact? I can believe Armus is actually Harry Mudd from an alternate timeline, but I'm not going to talk about that like it happened on the show. We don't even know the exact method of her resurrections, so why are you talking, again, about this like it's complete fact? We can extrapolate that she has multiple bodies--something Terry Matalas said--but we haven't been told anything about it in the shows beyond the Queen transferring herself to Jurati. All we know is that it's the same person; that she's ancient according to Troi.

Oh and to refresh your memory again:

AOL chats/Ronald D. Moore/ron046.txt

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[Qonundrum]

This goes on all the time. The Defiant's red alert was used on Qo'Nos at the end of Redemption Part 2. The Scimitar's intruder alert is a Starfleet warp core breach alarm. The Son'a intruder alert is the same as a Cardassian red alert.

Hell, Trek alarms get used outside the Trek franchise too. Voyager's red alert was used in a Russian military base in The Sum of All Fears. The NX-01's warp core breach alarm in Shockwave is the general alarm used on the Taelon Mothership in Earth Final Conflict, if you want an example of the reverse.

I could have sworn hearing the wrong sound effect in TBOBW as well.

ST6 and Generations both had the wrong transporter effects.

I'd swear that Generations, in the theater, had the TV show door chimes but were replaced for home video by the VOY ones, but that might be due to the Mandolin effect...

(And for once I didn't do a boo-boo; I hope I know the difference between Mandolin, Mandalorian, Manchurian, Mandala, Mandela, Berenstein Bears, Berenstain Bears, Mushroom Soufflé, Marsha Brady, Marcia Brady, Marcia Marcia Marcia, etc...)