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Fear the Walking Dead Season 1 discussion and spoilers.

If zombies are completely mindless and don't have any consciousness (like a car without a driver), then why does a head shot destroy them?

In the CDC episode it's explained to us that the "zombie virus" restarts the brain stem, seemingly just enough to revive the most basic of drives and instincts but the "you part" of the brain never comes back. A head-shot (or damage to brain upon death) prevents the "zombie virus" from re-activating enough of the brain to reaniamte.

We could probably make *some* argument that initially on revival the walkers have some level of intelligence if only in the most basic of instinctive ways. We've seen them use tools (a walker uses a rock to try and break down the department store windows in the second episode of the series) and more-or-less go "out of their way" to seek out prey. (In the first episode of season 2 one seems to enter the RV to seek out prey with very little prompting; so it seems to be a "decision" it made.

But, it would seem the longer the walkers are around the less of the "smarts" of the host's brain they get to use and eventually become mindless wanderers driven only by audio cues, visual cues (mostly light) and aromas; which is how a herd develops as we see in the final episode of Season 2.

But the "zombie virus" reactivates the base functions of the brain which is why a head shot is needed to "kill" them. Damaging limbs jaw and such still can slow them down and prevent them from attacking (how Michonne created her familiars/"pets") but only a headshot puts them down for good.

We could quibble that the head shot should be more towards the base of the skull where the brain-stem is but the CDC EIV-MRI seemed to show that other parts of the brain are reactivated just not seemingly the "you part."
 
If zombies are completely mindless and don't have any consciousness (like a car without a driver), then why does a head shot destroy them?

In the CDC episode it's explained to us that the "zombie virus" restarts the brain stem, seemingly just enough to revive the most basic of drives and instincts but the "you part" of the brain never comes back. A head-shot (or damage to brain upon death) prevents the "zombie virus" from re-activating enough of the brain to reaniamte.

We could probably make *some* argument that initially on revival the walkers have some level of intelligence if only in the most basic of instinctive ways. We've seen them use tools (a walker uses a rock to try and break down the department store windows in the second episode of the series) and more-or-less go "out of their way" to seek out prey. (In the first episode of season 2 one seems to enter the RV to seek out prey with very little prompting; so it seems to be a "decision" it made.

But, it would seem the longer the walkers are around the less of the "smarts" of the host's brain they get to use and eventually become mindless wanderers driven only by audio cues, visual cues (mostly light) and aromas; which is how a herd develops as we see in the final episode of Season 2.

But the "zombie virus" reactivates the base functions of the brain which is why a head shot is needed to "kill" them. Damaging limbs jaw and such still can slow them down and prevent them from attacking (how Michonne created her familiars/"pets") but only a headshot puts them down for good.

We could quibble that the head shot should be more towards the base of the skull where the brain-stem is but the CDC EIV-MRI seemed to show that other parts of the brain are reactivated just not seemingly the "you part."

Very good post! :techman:

..and just because something is motivated by some base instinct (whether natural or manufactured--as it might be in the WD universe), does not mean there's a soul & conscience still in the body. If there were any part of that left, Amy, Milton or Merle would have resisted the urge to attack people they knew as living beings.
 
That would make a ZA somewhat easier to deal with, I think.

My comment about a 'mass suicide' was not so much motivated by "I couldn't live in a world where there are zombies", more like "I don't want to exist AS a zombie". If the latter would not apply, then there is still hope.
 
If zombies are completely mindless and don't have any consciousness (like a car without a driver), then why does a head shot destroy them?

In the CDC episode it's explained to us that the "zombie virus" restarts the brain stem, seemingly just enough to revive the most basic of drives and instincts but the "you part" of the brain never comes back. A head-shot (or damage to brain upon death) prevents the "zombie virus" from re-activating enough of the brain to reaniamte.

We could probably make *some* argument that initially on revival the walkers have some level of intelligence if only in the most basic of instinctive ways. We've seen them use tools (a walker uses a rock to try and break down the department store windows in the second episode of the series) and more-or-less go "out of their way" to seek out prey. (In the first episode of season 2 one seems to enter the RV to seek out prey with very little prompting; so it seems to be a "decision" it made.

But, it would seem the longer the walkers are around the less of the "smarts" of the host's brain they get to use and eventually become mindless wanderers driven only by audio cues, visual cues (mostly light) and aromas; which is how a herd develops as we see in the final episode of Season 2.

But the "zombie virus" reactivates the base functions of the brain which is why a head shot is needed to "kill" them. Damaging limbs jaw and such still can slow them down and prevent them from attacking (how Michonne created her familiars/"pets") but only a headshot puts them down for good.

We could quibble that the head shot should be more towards the base of the skull where the brain-stem is but the CDC EIV-MRI seemed to show that other parts of the brain are reactivated just not seemingly the "you part."

Very good post! :techman:

..and just because something is motivated by some base instinct (whether natural or manufactured--as it might be in the WD universe), does not mean there's a soul & conscience still in the body. If there were any part of that left, Amy, Milton or Merle would have resisted the urge to attack people they knew as living beings.

Well.... that depends on how you want to look at it and how you personally want to define the soul and what ties it to a body.

It's shown that "brain death" is what starts the process of reanimation since Herschel's heart stopped in the wake of his impromptu amputation and he was able to be revived because his heart was restarted before brain-death occurred. This is mostly consistent with real-world medical practices, the heart-stopping is no longer "death" since the heart can be restarted or replaced/supplemented by machines or transplant. But brain death ends you and cannot be recovered.

So, in today's world when do we consider a person to be dead to the point that their soul has left their body? There's been cases of people in vegetative and near-vegetative states (think Teri Schiavo) who've been kept "alive" on machines even though they have little to no brain activity, just enough to more-or-less keep the body running. Since the body is "running" are we preventing their soul from entering the afterlife? And if there soul is still in there it's obviously trapped and unable to control their physical body.

If the soul leaves upon brain death and any sustaining of the body is just keeping the "meat" running that's another issue altogether, in such a case it's not a moral question on whether it is "right" to keep a body alive for organ harvesting or on family's hope of recovery. Because in one instance the person isn't suffering: no brain activity, no "person" there to suffer. In the other case recovery isn't possible if any soul has left the body causing the loss of higher brain activity resulting in the vegetative state.

So where does that leave the walkers in TWD universe if we're going to believe in and accept the idea of a soul? We're told that resurrection times vary from minutes to hours, does the soul hang around the body for that long? Does the "zombie virus" somehow prevent any soul from leaving the body? In which case is the soul in there witnessing the events around them but unable to really control their actions? (Like in stories and beliefs that people in comas are aware of their surroundings if only on a subconscious level even if they cannot interact with their surroundings.)

Our is the soul truly gone and the body is just being animated by random electrical impulses generated by the "zombie virus" sort of like making a dissected frog's leg twitch using electrical inputs in a high-school biology class? The walker has no real "awareness" and it's simply the "life" of the virus/pathogen dealing with a more meaningful vessel as opposed to a microscopic one?

If the walkers still have their soul then obviously the soul has no control over the actions of their former body. If there is no soul then the walkers are acting on instinct and on whatever biological remains of memories still exist in any remaining brain connections. The "soul" not really needed for memory retention, there's a biological process for memories.

In either case, the characters have more-or-less made it clear that they treat the walkers still as "people" on some level as we've seen a number of "mercy kills" of a walker or some suggestion of it being wrong to keep a person "living like this" or in some cases seeing it as "just" in keeping a person "living like this" (Rick wanting to allow the Terminus butchers to reanimate.)

There's a lot of questions to raise and think about when it comes to any metaphysical aspects of the walkers and the "people" they once where. Jenner insists that the "you part" of the brain never comes back on-line, but in a few, early, cases it seems the walkers have some ability to reach that part of the mind, if only for a brief time as the more complicated parts of the brain deteriorate. Maybe reanimation time matters there, if the body reanimates before the more complex parts of the brain deteriorate it can uses those parts for a short time. It still deteriorates but the walker has some use of it for a period.

But being able to use that part of the brain and maybe be able to "remember" things like how to use tools and maybe even a glimmer of recognition (Morgan's reaniamted wife seemed to "remember" the house she was last in and wanted to enter it even though no one in the house made any noise.) is entirely different than their being a soul. Again, going back to my frog example. The "zombie virus" can maybe for a time create enough of an electrical connection in those parts of the brain to give the walker a glimpse into those areas of the brain but that's different than a *person* being able to use and access and "know" those parts anytime they want since those electrical connections are always flowing.

Then, at some point, any ability to use those higher areas of the brain vanish completely -probably through quicker deterioration the "zombie virus" cannot slow down or prevent- and we get our mindless drones driven only on the most basic of instincts.
 
In the CDC episode it's explained to us that the "zombie virus" restarts the brain stem, seemingly just enough to revive the most basic of drives and instincts but the "you part" of the brain never comes back. A head-shot (or damage to brain upon death) prevents the "zombie virus" from re-activating enough of the brain to reaniamte.

I haven't really kept up with the Walking Dead, but this explanation actually seems good to me. I always wondered about that myself, since it's easy to assume the head shot only works for magical plot reasons. ;)
 
So, in today's world when do we consider a person to be dead to the point that their soul has left their body? There's been cases of people in vegetative and near-vegetative states (think Teri Schiavo) who've been kept "alive" on machines even though they have little to no brain activity, just enough to more-or-less keep the body running. Since the body is "running" are we preventing their soul from entering the afterlife? And if there soul is still in there it's obviously trapped and unable to control their physical body.

I lean toward the side that brain death--beyond its physical ramifications--means a person is not only permanently divorced from the conscious state, but if one has a soul, it too was tied to the active, conscious mind (not the brain functioning by external stimulation) so when one goes--so too...
They work in concert in driving a human to not merely be animated pieces of meat guided only by impulses/instinct, but born with thought, and a larger "inner being" which separates man from animal, and gives him a higher purpose (with the ability to choose to exercise the sub-categories of that purpose) greater than the often chaotic, destructive drives behind national affiliation, culture, image and desire.

If the soul leaves upon brain death and any sustaining of the body is just keeping the "meat" running that's another issue altogether, in such a case it's not a moral question on whether it is "right" to keep a body alive for organ harvesting or on family's hope of recovery. Because in one instance the person isn't suffering: no brain activity, no "person" there to suffer. In the other case recovery isn't possible if any soul has left the body causing the loss of higher brain activity resulting in the vegetative state.

To your reference to Teri Schiavo, I think she was long gone by the time her case became a political football. It's not like she was there, but just "buried" in a half-functioning brain. So, all they were doing is keeping a body running. A mechanical process, if you will, but that's not "being alive" as humans understand it..it is not so simple.


So where does that leave the walkers in TWD universe if we're going to believe in and accept the idea of a soul? We're told that resurrection times vary from minutes to hours, does the soul hang around the body for that long? Does the "zombie virus" somehow prevent any soul from leaving the body? In which case is the soul in there witnessing the events around them but unable to really control their actions? (Like in stories and beliefs that people in comas are aware of their surroundings if only on a subconscious level even if they cannot interact with their surroundings.)

The zombie virus kills in a complete manner, so if there's any soul/mind left, it is only during the fevered period, as seen with Jim, Andrea and Tyreese. However, once the virus fully consumed the body, there's nothing there--no soul, no mind.

Perhaps a better example of the course of the hard separation caused by the zombie virus from soul/mind was Shane. After the internal bleeding/organ damage from such an extreme knifing, he was clinically dead--so the flashes of zombie face fury was the virus activating a lifeless brain with none of what made Shane...Shane remaining.


Our is the soul truly gone and the body is just being animated by random electrical impulses generated by the "zombie virus" sort of like making a dissected frog's leg twitch using electrical inputs in a high-school biology class? The walker has no real "awareness" and it's simply the "life" of the virus/pathogen dealing with a more meaningful vessel as opposed to a microscopic one?

This is an interesting idea and its why I feel TWD staff--as much as they try to avoid explanations--have written stories, or planted enough clues that lead to your analysis, and a conclusion that the zombie virus could be nothing other than man made with a specific purpose.

The key leading to the idea that it was a targeted virus is the defining feature of cannibalism. Cannibalism is not even a natural, subconscious trait of the average human, so it is hard to imagine any natural pathogen reanimating a clinically dead body and trigger a need to primarily seek out humans as a food source. If someone wanted to create the perfect, fearless weapon--with the psychological benefit of causing terror in everyone, then a cannibal corpse would serve that purpose.

Whether one used captured zombies (Woodbury, the Wolves), or infected a population so that everyone is a ticking time bomb of death, the zombie virus is a perfect, designer weapon.


In either case, the characters have more-or-less made it clear that they treat the walkers still as "people" on some level as we've seen a number of "mercy kills" of a walker or some suggestion of it being wrong to keep a person "living like this" or in some cases seeing it as "just" in keeping a person "living like this" (Rick wanting to allow the Terminus butchers to reanimate.)

That's a human survivor's desire for comfort in tragic situation. Take Lori: Carl wanted to prevent her from reanimating, but after the amateur c-section, she bled out, lapsed into unconsciousness, and died. At that point, Lori passed on, so there was no "living like that" for her in any case.

The virus also causes delirium; Jim did not want a gun to commit suicide, since he said...

I want to be with my family.

Of course, this came from the mouth of a severely infected person, so "the fever was talking," or he simply had a gross misunderstanding of how the virus ends life.



There's a lot of questions to raise and think about when it comes to any metaphysical aspects of the walkers and the "people" they once where. Jenner insists that the "you part" of the brain never comes back on-line, but in a few, early, cases it seems the walkers have some ability to reach that part of the mind, if only for a brief time as the more complicated parts of the brain deteriorate.

Amy was an early case, but her reaching for Andrea's face was the creature acting by design: rise and feed. She did not recognize her sister at all.

But being able to use that part of the brain and maybe be able to "remember" things like how to use tools and maybe even a glimmer of recognition (Morgan's reaniamted wife seemed to "remember" the house she was last in and wanted to enter it even though no one in the house made any noise.) is entirely different than their being a soul. Again, going back to my frog example. The "zombie virus" can maybe for a time create enough of an electrical connection in those parts of the brain to give the walker a glimpse into those areas of the brain but that's different than a *person* being able to use and access and "know" those parts anytime they want since those electrical connections are always flowing.

Morgan's wife tried to enter the house, but I would argue she "sniffed" out the living inside once she wandered close to the home (remember, in S1, on the store rooftop, the survivors, and later Michonne established that the living's odor attracts zombies).

Then, there was Merle, who did not recognize Daryl at all, and merely moved from one meal to what it thought would be another.
 
Trek_God_1 - one problem with your cannibalism analysis. We've seen the zombies on the show eat pretty much anything that moves.
 
Trek_God_1 - one problem with your cannibalism analysis. We've seen the zombies on the show eat pretty much anything that moves.

...but they hunt humans, sniff them out, chase them, even when other animals (ex. dogs) are on the streets. The point of the show, the horror of the show (in-universe and out) is that the dead eat humans. In the original Night of the Living Dead, there's a shot of a female zombie picking some insect from a tree and trying to eat it, but their overwhelming hunger for human flesh was the driver.
 
I think that's more a by product of humans being the most abundant food source around and also the fact that we're following a group of humans and not a pack of dogs.
 
It's always seemed to me that the zombies go after anything alive that they can catch. They ate Rick's horse in the pilot, and I'm pretty sure we've seem them eat other animals.

I finally watched the second episode today and I've enjoyed it quite a bit so far. The characters have been fairly interesting so far, and it is cool to see the beginnings of the apocalypse. I kind of like the fact that they are spacing out the zombie attacks, it makes it feel more shocking for the characters, and it allows for them to do a suspense to build.
 
We also see the walkers eat a deer Daryl had killed in the second episode and in the opening to S4 Rick lures the walkers away from the prison fence by sacrificing the pigs he was raising, in the following episodes of that season we learn that Lizzie was "feeding" the walkers outside the prison rats and such, as well as feeding a trapped walker on a set of railroad tracks.

So it seems the walkers will eat anything alive. Humans just tend to be easier by probably being slower-moving and less agile than most animals as well as noisier. There's no real reason for them to crave human flesh and they've likely not the brain power to "prefer" it over other meats, just humans are probably the easiest prey to hunt. We've also seen walkers prefer "live" food and are uninterested in non-living food. (The well walker wouldn't take the bait of a ham, and walker Harry Potter lost interest in his meal of a prison resident when it heard someone else moving around. He also seemed to lose interest in the prison resident when he turned and began to rouse, also showing some "innate" disinterest in consuming other walkers.
 
Was rewatching the show tonight and one thing stuck out as not realistic. No one turns on the TV when they get home. It's especially glaring because druggy son was just going through the radio stations listening for reports.
 
We also see the walkers eat a deer Daryl had killed in the second episode and in the opening to S4 Rick lures the walkers away from the prison fence by sacrificing the pigs he was raising, in the following episodes of that season we learn that Lizzie was "feeding" the walkers outside the prison rats and such, as well as feeding a trapped walker on a set of railroad tracks.

So it seems the walkers will eat anything alive. Humans just tend to be easier by probably being slower-moving and less agile than most animals as well as noisier. There's no real reason for them to crave human flesh and they've likely not the brain power to "prefer" it over other meats, just humans are probably the easiest prey to hunt. We've also seen walkers prefer "live" food and are uninterested in non-living food. (The well walker wouldn't take the bait of a ham, and walker Harry Potter lost interest in his meal of a prison resident when it heard someone else moving around. He also seemed to lose interest in the prison resident when he turned and began to rouse, also showing some "innate" disinterest in consuming other walkers.


I think we have to remember what I pointed out yesterday: the point & horror of the show (in-universe and out) is that the dead eat humans. Animals, I feel, are a mindless attack on anything else when the primary, natural food source (humans) are not around.

Think of it like living people: at this point in time, the living have primary, natural food sources, but in the event of a disaster, long-term isolation outside of civilization or famine, people will eat things (under normal conditions) considered out of the question, or utterly disgusting.

Since the reason to be / hallmark of TWD's zombies is cannibalism, I consider any animal attacks motivated by the same lack of the primary, natural food source, as in the living human example, but eating rats, woodchucks or horses cannot satisfy the zombies' (possibly programmed) needs.
 
Episode 2

Christ, this was dull. I get why they make everyone a dumb-fuck at the start of these kinds of shows (so we can watch them transform into experienced bad asses as things progress) but we've already seen that in the parent show. Don't need to see it again. Do something else.

Utterly forgettable episode. Get. On. With. It.
 
I'm not sure I see the dislike for this show. It seems on par with the parent show to me; in fact the second episode was a bit more suspenseful then some of the WD shows.

I think my big issue is actually what's to come--what is going to distinguish this program from the original after the first season?
 
Yeah, too many people seem to want the show to rush past what makes this show different and have it just be TWD:LA.
 
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