Fans of the early TNG Ferengi?

[Pikirk_Janesisko]

"The Last Outpost" almost made me give up on TNG. The Ferengi reveal was one of the most embarassing things I've seen. I found it hard to take them seriously in their first scene and that whole sequence on the planet was just awful. Well, the whole episode stinks. It's even more embarassing when you remember that the episode was setting up the Ferengi to be one of the main recurring antagonists, on par with the Klingons and Romulans on TOS.

It's unfortunate that they didn't expand on this type of Ferengi instead of turning them into little more than comic relief later in TNG and then furthering that in DS9. Wasted potential

I'm not a big fan of the Ferengi for this reason. They're so depthless and irritating, even more so on TNG. The comic relief aspect worked somewhat on DS9. Early TNG tried to make them threatning and it backfired horribly, so after that they kinda gave up on really fixing them.

 

[Ragitsu]

"The Last Outpost" almost made me give up on TNG.

Not the preceding blatantly racist/clichéd Code of Honor?

Fascinating.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I imagine Joseph Goebbels would have appreciated and approved of the early depiction of the Ferengi. I'm not saying they were deliberate racist stereotypes but that's how it seemed to me based on comparison with propaganda from the 1930s. Was the similarity not pointed out to GR or did nobody notice or worse even care?

 

[Ragitsu]

 

[Maurice]

Not the preceding blatantly racist/clichéd Code of Honor?

Fascinating.

Implying what?

I imagine Joseph Goebbels would have appreciated and approved of the early depiction of the Ferengi. I'm not say they were deliberate racist stereotypes but that's how it seemed to me based on comparison with propaganda from the 1930s. Was the similarity not pointed out to GR or did nobody notice or worse even care?

Oh, they knew what they were doing. What group is commonly stereotyped as either or both extremely rich and powerful, or usury and greedy? Often with coarse features and a unibrow? Hmmm...

In fact, De Forest Research repeatedly asked them to please not use the name Ferengi.

Apparently, the Bird wanted them to have enormous dongs, hence the giant codpiece.

 

[Ragitsu]

Implying what?

Wondering why the previous abomination ("Code of Honor") wasn't the straw that almost broke the camel's back; "The Last Outpost" is - overall - regarded more positively than "Code of Honor" (that's not saying much for Season 1, but the ratings are fairly evident).

Oh, they knew what they were doing. What group is commonly stereotyped as either or both extremely rich and powerful, or usury and greedy? Often with coarse features and a unibrow? Hmmm...

Where does "super strong pirates armed with energy whips" come into play? Oh, right...we're talking about the very first appearance of the Ferengi (as opposed to their more fleshed-out DS9 characterization).

By the way, for what it's worth, I found this quote elsewhere.

Shimerman addressed the issue when asked at a question-and-answer session at a Star Trek convention. He stated that:

In America, people ask 'Do the Ferengi represent Jews?' In England, they ask 'Do the Ferengi represent the Irish?' In Australia, they ask if the Ferengi represent the Chinese[...] The Ferengi represent the outcast... it's the person who lives among us that we don't fully understand.

I'm not sure if he was referring to his time on DS9, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

[Maurice]

Where does "super strong pirates armed with energy whips" come into play?

That's a dodge. These things aren't 1:1 matches and you know it.

 

[Ragitsu]

That's a dodge. These things aren't 1:1 matches and you know it.

Here we go. Let's cut to the bone, shall we? Do you believe that folks who enjoy the Ferengi are harboring race prejudice because of that enjoyment?

 

[somebuddyX]

I am not a fan of the TNG Ferengi but I think DS9 defanged them a little too much. I would have loved to seen their Marauders in the Dominion War. I also think they had potential as actual villains in an alternate TNG, if they were played much more seriously. I envision them in the style of Mr. Morden from Babylon 5, looking for deals and ways to fulfill them. None of their bullshit monkey man antics jumping around but sitting quietly, able to scrutinise you and see what you want and what you would do to achieve it. I also envisioned putting one of them one on one with proper psychologist Deanna Troi across a table from each other in some holding cell and having them try to match wits on one another.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Here we go. Let's cut to the bone, shall we? Do you believe that folks who enjoy the Ferengi are harboring race prejudice because of that enjoyment?

He never said or implied anything of the sort, merely pointed out some similarities between the depiction of the Ferengi and prevalent anti-Semitic stereotypes.

However, "cutting to the bone", as you say, you certainly seemed to not so subtly imply that the poster who didn't abandon ship on TNG after Code of Honor (an episode they didn't even mention because, quite obviously, it wasn't the topic at hand) was perhaps harboring some racial prejudice of their own. Or was it "fascinating" for some other reason?

If that wasn't your intent, so be it, but it's hard to see what else you were going for with that comment other than to try and silence them for criticizing an episode you liked by implying some terrible motive in the fact that they didn't randomly mention Code of Honor as a deal-breaker for them instead of the episode that's the actual subject of the thread.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Here we go. Let's cut to the bone, shall we? Do you believe that folks who enjoy the Ferengi are harboring race prejudice because of that enjoyment?

I liked the later Ferengi because the actors who played them did a really good job of portraying a race dominated by ultra-capitalism. It was immediately obvious that they were meant to be a Jewish (not Irish in the slightest and I'm English) stereotype from when I first saw them. However, they were so comedic that I chose to believe that it was deliberate meta-level satire on the subject of such stereotyping. It didn't make me racist toward Jewish people; it made me appreciate how some people might be so weak as to be influenced by the stupidest and most unsubtle forms of propaganda.

 

[Mudd]

Good afternoon.

Though there's a consensus (from what I have observed, anyhow) that the Ferengi were improved on the Star Trek series following The Next Generation, I have to say...their portrayal from The Last Outpost has grown on me over time. If you excise some of their goofier antics, you're left with cutthroat enigmatic traders boasting a strong pirate arm.

An absolutely dreadful, unredeemable episode. The Ferengi were clownish caricatures; Armin Shimerman later said of his own performance: "I was pretty much playing over-the-top villain – that turned out to be very comical. I thought I was being serious, but obviously, it was not serious. It's because there was no subtlety to the performance, there was no attempt to try to give them some real cojones ... It was bad acting. It was just bad acting. "

Shimerman would also later suggest that what made playing Quark interesting was that he wasn't playing an "alien;" he was getting to play one of the few truly, completely human characters on Star Trek at that time.

 

[Ragitsu]

He never said or implied anything of the sort, merely pointed out some similarities between the depiction of the Ferengi and prevalent anti-Semitic stereotypes.

It's difficult to avoid that assumption, because it was - to them at least - blatantly obvious. I never saw any stereotype until it was mentioned many years later.

However, "cutting to the bone", as you say, you certainly seemed to not so subtly imply that the poster who didn't abandon ship on TNG after Code of Honor (an episode they didn't even mention because, quite obviously, it wasn't the topic at hand) was perhaps harboring some racial prejudice of their own. Or was it "fascinating" for some other reason?

Naturally, if you're watching the series from start to finish, Code of Honor comes before The Last Outpost. It's possible that they saw some episodes out of order (television stations occasionally make this mistake and DVD releases aren't exempt from this either). As I said, the latter is generally better received than the former; because of that, I wondered why they weren't almost forced to abandon the series prior to the fifth episode. Maybe they found it less objectionable...at least The Last Outpost has better writing going for it in addition to the seed (the Ferengi) it planted. There's also nice tidbits such as the hologram device and the first appearance of a Ferengi ship (IMO, a cool design).

If that wasn't your intent, so be it, but it's hard to see what else you were going for with that comment other than to try and silence them for criticizing an episode you liked by implying some terrible motive in the fact that they didn't randomly mention Code of Honor as a deal-breaker for them instead of the episode that's the actual subject of the thread.

Nope. I'm genuinely curious as to what makes Code of Honor less egregious by comparison.

 

[Herbert]

I'm not a big fan of the Ferengi for this reason. They're so depthless and irritating, even more so on TNG. The comic relief aspect worked somewhat on DS9. Early TNG tried to make them threatening and it backfired horribly, so after that they kinda gave up on really fixing them.

Gave up too early I'd say. More likely some producer or writer got the idea to turn them into a comedic element and they just went with that. I will agree that having them jump around like monkees and chimps in The Last Outpost didn't really work but they could have tried harder before just turning them into comic relief.

Although I enjoyed DS9 a great deal, one of the lower points of the show, for me, were most of the ferengi episodes, especially any Nagus episodes.

 

[Mudd]

Quark and the Ferengi were the best thing about DS9.

 

[Ragitsu]

Gave up too early I'd say. More likely some producer or writer got the idea to turn them into a comedic element and they just went with that. I will agree that having them jump around like monkees and chimps in The Last Outpost didn't really work but they could have tried harder before just turning them into comic relief.

It's a shame: they made one attempt (perhaps two, if you count The Battle) and then reverted to the Romulans.

 

[Herbert]

Quark and the Ferengi were the best thing about DS9.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed that

 

[Ragitsu]

He did almost kill Quark in "The Nagus".

Rom's early characterization doesn't square away with the man he would become.

Is that a show of competence by the Ferengi or a show of incompetence by Our Heroes?

A little from Column A and a little from Column B...?

 

[Mudd]

Thanks for the laugh.

Glad to return the favor.

 

[Ragitsu]

True. And a common TOS trope was that the Enterprise would show up at some world or other and essentially impose Federation norms on it before jetting away: making the men and women live together in "Spock's Brain", requiring that Vaal's followers take care of themselves in "The Apple", and making the two worlds fight their war for real in an episode I don't recall the title of, complete with gore, fire, and destruction. TNG moved away from that early on, perhaps realizing that reform was a little more complicated than that.

This was even mentioned in The Last Outpost.

RIKER: I admit we withheld modern technology from some worlds.
KAYRON: You see? They are demented. Their values are insane. You cannot believe the business opportunities they have destroyed.
LETEK: Proof of their barbarism. They adorn themselves with gold, a despicable use of a valuable metal. And they shamelessly clothe their females.
MORDOC: Inviting others to unclothe them. The very depth of perversion.
TASHA: Paws off, Ferengi.
MORDOC: No female, human or Ferengi, can order Mordoc around! Submit!
TASHA: Just try it, shorty.
RIKER: At ease, Lieutenant!
RIKER: And we still have more faults
DATA: They should add that Starfleet has permitted several civilisations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak.

Sad that little touches of nuance and potential weren't able to be expanded upon.

That would really have made a lot more sense, and would have shown us the other members of the Ferengi Alliance.

Basically, if you - enterprising Ferengi - can't hack it as a merchant, you hack it as a pirate (maybe quite literally!) until you can scrape together enough capital to go "legit". Violence is seen as tool for the desperate or the inordinately skilled (this allows for dedicated Ferengi warriors proficiently wielding energy whips).