Fan Film Creation and Critique

[Amaris]

^^ I mean, I really wasn't trying to set the stage for more Renegades-bashing in anything I said here, but it's an unavoidable fact that they didn't remotely hit the mark they set for themselves. I'm largely able to appreciate it as an earnestly-intended B-movie, which probably strikes them as faint praise. I'm just saying I'm not about to go perpetually lashing them with "You said CBS! Thus will I judge thee!" because I don't see the point. I prefer to review the project within the parameters I already knew it inhabited... wherein it's still underwhelming, but so it goes.

Such also my attitude to Axanar; if it winds up straight-up sucking I'll say so, but I'm not about to be all "You said [such-and-such] and thus shalt thou be judged!" about it, because that would be largely pointless and wouldn't make my views more credible, save from the POV of I-told-you-so, which is harder to sell as "constructive" than other attitudes.

I don't intend to bash Renegades on this one (or didn't mean to anyway), it's just for me it really fell apart. As for Axanar, and as with any other fan production, it's less of a "thou shalt be judged!" and more of a "you guys said you were full professional/making a TV pilot quality film/et. al., what happened?! Why does this look like Ed Wood took over a quarter of the way through?!" kind of thing.

One thing working in Axanar's favor, that fell through for Renegades, is their budget is looking really good. Of course, budget means nothing if the script isn't cracking or the editing isn't tight, but it's nice to know that they'll be able to afford the things that do the things they need them to do.

Still, I've seen what ST:C has done with their lower budget, and it impresses me. In fact, that may be the time to impress someone, is when they produce something you think is excellent, and then you find out "and we did it on this budget." That just adds a whole layer of awesome to the mix.

 

[BigJake]

The bigger budget certainly doesn't guarantee Axanar will be better. They could still fumble it despite the promising early indications; we'll just have to see.

 

[Amaris]

The bigger budget certainly doesn't guarantee Axanar will be better. They could still fumble it despite the promising early indications; we'll just have to see.

Very true. My focus will be on that script. I will expect good cinematography, professional acting, and decent SFX (that's not as important to me), but I want that script to sing. I don't expect perfection, of course, because that would be absurdly unreasonable. I just want to see a great script.

I still think back to STNV/P2's "World Enough and Time," and how it actually moved me. I enjoyed it so much. For me, it worked, and it worked well. I didn't expect perfection, just good entertainment, and it really hit the nail on the head, all with a lower budget.

 

[BigJake]

A solid script being, indeed, the key. So many problems come of not having one.

 

[Amaris]

A solid script being, indeed, the key. So many problems come of not having one.

For me, the biggest one being "What the hell is going on?" when we're only 20 minutes into the movie.

 

[BigJake]

No doubt.

 

[martok2112]

A solid script being, indeed, the key. So many problems come of not having one.

For me, the biggest one being "What the hell is going on?" when we're only 20 minutes into the movie.

Yeah...that was the deal breaker for me, really.... "what the hell was going on?" I really just wasn't inclined to stick around to find out what.

Like I said, no one sets out to make a bad movie, but sometimes, it just kinda manifests even with the best of intentions. One person's masterpiece is another's garbage.

 

[Jedman67]

(This was the kind of fan of a certain sci-fi property who was overly butt hurt that his favorite sci-fi property didn't see a "proper continuation", and until that day came, he had no use for what a few idealistic fans might churn out, no matter how high a quality project they'd yield.)

I'd say i'm about 90% of this, with the exception being for productions that come close to matching professional quality.

Like I said, no one sets out to make a bad movie, but sometimes, it just kinda manifests even with the best of intentions. One person's masterpiece is another's garbage.

Example: the recent Hobbit Trilogy. The problem was script and plot. There was a fan who edited out nearly half the trilogy's runtime into a single 4 hour movie.

 

[fireproof78]

(This was the kind of fan of a certain sci-fi property who was overly butt hurt that his favorite sci-fi property didn't see a "proper continuation", and until that day came, he had no use for what a few idealistic fans might churn out, no matter how high a quality project they'd yield.)

I'd say i'm about 90% of this, with the exception being for productions that come close to matching professional quality.

Like I said, no one sets out to make a bad movie, but sometimes, it just kinda manifests even with the best of intentions. One person's masterpiece is another's garbage.

Example: the recent Hobbit Trilogy. The problem was script and plot. There was a fan who edited out nearly half the trilogy's runtime into a single 4 hour movie.

Only one?

I figured fan edits of the Hobbit would be fairly common once i heard it was to be a trilogy.

 

[martok2112]

Having never read any of Tolkien's books, I wasn't overly bothered that The Hobbit was stretched out into a trilogy. I still enjoyed 'em.

However, I think what happened was this:
Peter Jackson: Ok, we're finally going to make the Hobbit movies.

Other production schmuck: Wait, Peter? Movies?

Peter Jackson: Yes, movies, as in plural.

Other production schmuck: But, Peter, The Hobbit was only one book....and not a very long read at that.

Peter Jackson: Yes, but think about it! My fans--- er-- I mean-- Tolkien's fans got to enjoy the LOTR books as three separate movies. And now, here we are, over a decade later. The fans have been waiting. And for what?! Just one more movie?! Oh, I say thee "NAY!".

Other Production Schmuck: Ok, Peter. How do you propose to stretch one smaller book out into a trilogy?! And, are you planning on making them 3 hours or more in length like the LOTR movies?

Peter Jackson: We'll use Tolkien's notes that he'd cast aside for The Hobbit, and work them back in. And believe me, he had a ton of notes!

OPS: Ummm...yeah, but did you ever consider that perhaps he threw those notes out because he felt they didn't really serve the story.

Peter Jackson: That's the beauty of my magic! I'll make those notes work! And I'll oversell the emotion like I did with the LOTR movies. My fans--- er-- I mean-- Tolkien's fans will eat it up! And yes, I plan to make sure at least the first two movies in The Hobbit trilogy run around 3 hours....maybe more so we can milk the fans for the extended cuts.

---------------------------------------

Anyhoo, that's how I saw that conversation going.

 

[Jedman67]

@Martok:

Only one?

I figured fan edits of the Hobbit would be fairly common once i heard it was to be a trilogy.

I know of at least two, but the cuts were very similar that they ended up collaborating and refining it more. I'm sure there are more, but who knows?

Even though the first movie was long, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sure there were parts I would have trimmed for time, but overall it was a nice job. The second needed at least two thirds of its runtime cut, and the third as well - it was just excessive and added little to the story. It seems that Peter Jackson fell victim to the thinking that CGI and action can replace story.
Anyhoo thats just my $0.02

 

[BigJake]

Honestly one has to wonder if Jackson's heart was really in the Hobbit project by the time it was finally made, after all the nastiness with New Line and having to eventually step into the director's chair when he hadn't planned to.

 

[MikeH92467]

For a while Maurice used as a signature a quote from Orson Welles to the effect that the absence of limitations is the enemy of art. Sometimes the worst thing that can happen to a filmmaker is to get all the money and resources he/she wants to do everything they dreamed and no one has the power or courage to tell them, the movie is too damn long and/or the script is bad.

 

[BigJake]

^ Very true.

 

[fireproof78]

@Martok:

Only one?

I figured fan edits of the Hobbit would be fairly common once i heard it was to be a trilogy.

I know of at least two, but the cuts were very similar that they ended up collaborating and refining it more. I'm sure there are more, but who knows?

Even though the first movie was long, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sure there were parts I would have trimmed for time, but overall it was a nice job. The second needed at least two thirds of its runtime cut, and the third as well - it was just excessive and added little to the story. It seems that Peter Jackson fell victim to the thinking that CGI and action can replace story.
Anyhoo thats just my $0.02

I think that the first Hobbit film is very close to how the rest of the films should have gone, with an expansion on the Dwarves and their culture, rather everything else we got in the next two.

As for fan edits, I have no doubt that they will become more common because there is plenty of great material in the films, but assembling them in to a cohesive whole is the trick.

Honestly one has to wonder if Jackson's heart was really in the Hobbit project by the time it was finally made, after all the nastiness with New Line and having to eventually step into the director's chair when he hadn't planned to.

I think his heart was in it, but that he was living in the shadow of his own success. The Hobbit films were not just to be a story about Bilbo, it was the continuation of the grand epic that is Middle Earth. He also had greater tools to use when it came to realizing scenes that he wanted to do, in a similar way to George Lucas.

Unfortunately, there is a two fold problem with that. First, the overall tone of the Hobbit book does not immediately lend itself to the epic treatment that LOTR and would require a commitment to a much darker tone than many fans of the book would be comfortable with, at least I think that would be the case.

Second problem is the use of tech to expand upon concepts that were pretty well realized in the LOTR through the use of some ground breaking visual effects, both practical and CG.

I think the general tone of this production is to make it as big as possible, with no regard as to whether or not it made sense in the world of Middle Earth or contributed to the story overall.

It honestly feels close to Lucas levels with the PT and the SE of Star Wars, save for the fact that I think there are some great characters in the Hobbit, especially Thorin, Bilbo and Thranduil.

The sad part is simply the fact that it could have been a whole lot more.

 

[BigJake]

^ Or perhaps, a whole lot less. Trying to be more was the problem.

I didn't have a problem with them bringing some darker material into it, but the tonal mismatch with the stuff authentic to the Hobbit was horrible. So was the sense of everything being... thin. Like butter scraped over too much bread. They probably should have just let the Hobbit be its own lighthearted (single) film without trying to shoehorn a bunch of other material into it, and then if Jackson was really determined to have his own epic prequel done something like that separately.

 

[Phantom]

Well I hope not, that would be a rather delusional account of them (in that Karzak was certainly the opposite of being "censored" or "trounced" or ganged-up-on in any of those threads, hopefully he doesn't see being disagreed with as the equivalent of any of those things).

It's called "projection".

It is understandable that a production is criticized upon the levels they have advertised beforehand, but I would ask each viewer to not turn their brain off and see those productions in perspective. It is simply not possible for a production with, lets say half a million for a 90 minute movie to compete with a 200 million studio-backed feature full. Or an official pilot for a studio, which by today probably also has a budget of 10 million or more. Everybody who leaves that out of the equation is just stupid. It is equally stupid of producers to promise such a thing, because it raises expectations into unreachable heights. Sure, you might get lucky and a 500K production actually looks like a 2 or 3 million dollar production, but this requires a enormous amount of production planning, a lot of restriction in terms of amount of actors, sets,vfx - and a damn good and effective script. None of which applies to recent offerings in the fan film community.

Axanar.

 

[fireproof78]

^ Or perhaps, a whole lot less. Trying to be more was the problem.

I didn't have a problem with them bringing some darker material into it, but the tonal mismatch with the stuff authentic to the Hobbit was horrible. So was the sense of everything being... thin. Like butter scraped over too much bread. They probably should have just let the Hobbit be its own lighthearted (single) film without trying to shoehorn a bunch of other material into it, and then if Jackson was really determined to have his own epic prequel done something like that separately.

Agreed. The butter analogy is probably the best one to describe the films, in my opinion.

Well I hope not, that would be a rather delusional account of them (in that Karzak was certainly the opposite of being "censored" or "trounced" or ganged-up-on in any of those threads, hopefully he doesn't see being disagreed with as the equivalent of any of those things).

It's called "projection".

It is understandable that a production is criticized upon the levels they have advertised beforehand, but I would ask each viewer to not turn their brain off and see those productions in perspective. It is simply not possible for a production with, lets say half a million for a 90 minute movie to compete with a 200 million studio-backed feature full. Or an official pilot for a studio, which by today probably also has a budget of 10 million or more. Everybody who leaves that out of the equation is just stupid. It is equally stupid of producers to promise such a thing, because it raises expectations into unreachable heights. Sure, you might get lucky and a 500K production actually looks like a 2 or 3 million dollar production, but this requires a enormous amount of production planning, a lot of restriction in terms of amount of actors, sets,vfx - and a damn good and effective script. None of which applies to recent offerings in the fan film community.

Axanar.

We can't judge that film yet because it is not out yet. There is a lot of hype, but nothing to evaluate it yet.

So, I remain skeptical. Also, the hype can be its own worst enemy.

 

[martok2112]

@Martok:

 

[BigJake]

We can't judge that film yet because it is not out yet.

I'm supportive and I've got faith, but I really do wish Phantom would restrain himself from talking about Axanar like it's a finished product. (I admit this is partly down to a bit of superstition on my part, it kind of feels like "jinxing" it, but also basically everyone who says we don't have much yet to evaluate is correct. So take it in what sense thou wilt, Phantom.)