Faith/Religion/Spirituality - Self-Denial? And Philosophy

[Misfit Toy]

Well, doubts about the existence of God or gods arose as we started discovering rational, naturalistic explanations for phenomenon and existence, understanding why planets, rocks, and animals formed the way they did.

However, some elements of our world are undeniably the work of God, such as Sundays. Man can't "create" a day of the week, and neither can any act of orbital mechanics, or knotted space-time loops in the big bang. If Sundays exist, God must exist, because nothing else can explain their existence.

Man created Sundays. And Sundaes. Man also created the modern day bunny rabbit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And Man even created ponies, strange as it may seem...

And the existence of God has been confirmed. It was settled through pro wrestling.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfRkcJ0BLS0[/yt]

 

[1001001]

Freud was wrong about reducing everything to sexual instinct. But he was totally right with starting off the psychoanalytical project because it touches very basic human paradoxes which we do not really wanna know.
If you say that everybody is agnostic the word loses all meaning. People are believers and non-believers at the same time, they believe that their body will rot and that their soul is eternal, independent of whether they call themselves theists or atheists or whatever. The knowledge of our mortality literally drives us crazy.

Freud actually wrote a lengthy paper called The Future of an Illusion which covered his thoughts on religion pretty well. All the usual suspects are there: control of base instincts, wish fulfillment (the desire to live forever), and the projections of our parent objects onto a creator:

"When the growing individual finds that he is destined to remain a child for ever, that he can never do without protection against strange powers, he lends those powers the features belonging to the figure of his father; he creates for himself the gods whom he dreads, whom he seeks to propitiate, and whom he nevertheless entrusts with his own protection. Thus his longing for a father is a motive identical with his need for protection against the consequences of his human weakness. The defense against childish helplessness is what lends its characteristic features to the adult's reaction to the helplessness which he has to acknowledge — a reaction which is precisely the formation of religion."

As for myself, I suppose I'm best described as agnostic, in that I don't know. I do believe something is going on here, but I have no idea what it is.

I do like Buddhism, though I wonder if it is more philosophy than theology.

I continue to explore.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When I think of Freud, I think of this and nothing else.

(Whatever Freud might think of my religious belief is not, in the strictest technical sense, "relevant". )

 

[Mr Silver]

But I will be sure to ask God about that when I meet Him.

See, the idea that "God" is male, irks me something terrible. It's so blindingly obvious, that the human patriarchal bias of old, is what fuelled this idea, not anything else.

If there was an all powerful being, that was responsible for creation of everything that we know, that has always existed, without any origin point, then why would that being even need a gender? Even if you take the idea that Jesus was the son of God, and not just a prophet as he is portrayed in some religions, then there is still no reason for God to have a gender.

The thing is, the God of the old testament came across as very Human. God had temper tantrums and got pissed off when his people didn't play the way he wanted them to. What followed were things like playing gambits with Abraham, sending out plagues upon Egypt and even destroying the world via a giant flood, in order to start again. It seemed that God, at that point, had surmised that things had gone too far and a reboot was needed. A very human reaction.

Why would a supreme being be prone to the flaws of humanity? TMP has never been more true, in the adage that "we all create God in our own image".

 

[Shaytan]

I won't say that I'm fine with the idea of dying but I'm fine with the idea that there is nothing after life.
I also don't think that my life is important, I'm nothing in the universe and my existance has no real meaning, it just happens. I actually find that comforting. When you're nothing, what's really important ?

I guess that makes me an "athiest", but that's not really a mystery

 

[beamMe]

^That is ridiculous. I don't believe my soul is eternal. I am perfectly content with mortality. Just because you cannot reconcile non belief and sanity doesn't mean other people can't. I am crazy for completely different reasons.

This is not some personal bullshit, it is fundamental human paradox which has of course to be repressed in order to enable us to actually function.
Everybody who claims that he is perfectly fine with the biological fact of our mortality lacks the ability to at least notice what he has repressed.

I'm perfectly fine with that biological fact.
So, what am I missing?

 

[thestrangequark]

^That is ridiculous. I don't believe my soul is eternal. I am perfectly content with mortality. Just because you cannot reconcile non belief and sanity doesn't mean other people can't. I am crazy for completely different reasons.

This is not some personal bullshit, it is fundamental human paradox which has of course to be repressed in order to enable us to actually function.
Everybody who claims that he is perfectly fine with the biological fact of our mortality lacks the ability to at least notice what he has repressed.

No, it is most definitely "some personal bullshit".

 

[horatio83]

Thanks for the show, disavowal and repression are always entertaining to watch.

 

[beamMe]

Thanks for the show, disavowal and repression are always entertaining to watch.

What's being repressed?

 

[thestrangequark]

Thanks for the show, disavowal and repression are always entertaining to watch.

What's being repressed?

The Great Human Paradox! Duh!

 

[Gaith]

If there was an all powerful being, that was responsible for creation of everything that we know, that has always existed, without any origin point, then why would that being even need a gender? Even if you take the idea that Jesus was the son of God, and not just a prophet as he is portrayed in some religions, then there is still no reason for God to have a gender.

I think Slartibartfast got it pretty much right.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I do think Mr. Laser Beam summarized why I feel this way better than I could. There is a lot of good stuff in the faith, such as teaching forgiveness, or that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins and that we all have eternal life.

See I get all the "good stuff" in religious beliefs but I have pretty much slipped over the side of the religion boat because I find I need to know if the other stuff, the ultimate answers to ultimate questions is true. I can no longer participate in christian services etc.. because the "good stuff" is only one element of it.

I can have the supposed "good stuff" about religion without having a religion, so I guess I'm for pruning unnecessary hypotheses.

^That is ridiculous. I don't believe my soul is eternal. I am perfectly content with mortality. Just because you cannot reconcile non belief and sanity doesn't mean other people can't. I am crazy for completely different reasons.

This is not some personal bullshit, it is fundamental human paradox which has of course to be repressed in order to enable us to actually function.
Everybody who claims that he is perfectly fine with the biological fact of our mortality lacks the ability to at least notice what he has repressed.

You seem to spend a lot of time telling people what they do or don't believe. That's rather unfortunate, and quite reproachable.

See, what it comes down to, is the early tribal religious beliefs. Ancient man looked to the sky and saw a golden orb, an orb that brought light into the sky and provided warmth. The ancient humans began to worship the orb as a god, after all, the orb was indistinguishable from magic. Maybe it wasn't even that, perhaps they worshipped it out of fear. That fear being, that the orb would go away, and leave behind eternal darkness.

Through fear, we created the concepts of black and white. Anything that was good, we associated with white, or the light, and anything that was bad, we associated with black, or the darkness. In the dark, we were susceptible to nocturnal predators and other unseen dangers.

Or, alternatively, we become the unseen predators in the night.

I also don't think that my life is important, I'm nothing in the universe and my existance has no real meaning, it just happens. I actually find that comforting. When you're nothing, what's really important ?

To keep with the silly vampire quotes, I really like Angel's paradox: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

 

[thestrangequark]

^My personal favorite on that subject is Carl Sagan's, "We are the custodians of life's meaning."

The whole, beautiful speech can be heard here:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCfemmxqaRg[/yt]

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

See, the idea that "God" is male, irks me something terrible. It's so blindingly obvious, that the human patriarchal bias of old, is what fuelled this idea, not anything else.

Calm down, sparky, I'm not the one who invented religion.

Perhaps it is a bit presumptuous to use human gender terms when referring to God. BFD. It's just how I choose to go about it.

If there was an all powerful being, that was responsible for creation of everything that we know, that has always existed, without any origin point, then why would that being even need a gender?

Who cares? Like I said, I'll ask when I get the chance.

The thing is, the God of the old testament came across as very Human. God had temper tantrums and got pissed off when his people didn't play the way he wanted them to. What followed were things like playing gambits with Abraham, sending out plagues upon Egypt and even destroying the world via a giant flood, in order to start again. It seemed that God, at that point, had surmised that things had gone too far and a reboot was needed. A very human reaction.

That's why we have a New Testament. God made a new covenant with humanity.

 

[JarodRussell]

The thing is, the God of the old testament came across as very Human. God had temper tantrums and got pissed off when his people didn't play the way he wanted them to. What followed were things like playing gambits with Abraham, sending out plagues upon Egypt and even destroying the world via a giant flood, in order to start again. It seemed that God, at that point, had surmised that things had gone too far and a reboot was needed. A very human reaction.

That's why we have a New Testament. God made a new covenant with humanity.

Until he changes his mind again. A very unreliable dude.

Also the whole idea that he chose a certain people to be HIS people, and everyone else wandering and pondering around on Earth was a lesser being... that's just horrible.

And he loves to punish people for their faults. He doesn't even try to show them a good path, he doesn't try to give them a good example. He just issues a warning (or better threat), and when people don't do as he wants (why should they?), he kills them. That's a very nasty trait. It starts with Adam and Eve, so you can't say he somehow got fed up with them over time, he was like that from the very beginning. So they did something "wrong", for the first time. EVER. And he punishes them, his children, in a very extreme and over the top way.


I believe in things like morality, rehabilitation and equality. I don't find any of that in the behavior of the almighty god as described in the bible. So if he exists, and if he actually is like he is depicted in that book, he has absolutely no right to judge me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ See, that's the beauty of it: Now that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, God won't change his mind.

 

[JarodRussell]

^ See, that's the beauty of it: Now that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, God won't change his mind.

That's the other total brain lock I don't get about that particular religion. Explain to me why a) I was responsible for something I never did in the first place (original sin), and b) why the brutal killing of his son suddenly makes everything good again (even 2000 years after it in a RADICALLY different world). And why God had to change his mind in the first place. Isn't he supposed to be all knowing and the wisest being that can possibly exist?

 

[thestrangequark]

^ See, that's the beauty of it: Now that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, God won't change his mind.

That's the other total brain lock I don't get about that particular religion. Explain to me why a) I was responsible for something I never did in the first place (original sin), and b) why the brutal killing of his son suddenly makes everything good again (even 2000 years after it in a RADICALLY different world). And why God had to change his mind in the first place. Isn't he supposed to be all knowing and the wisest being that can possibly exist?

That's the biggest problem with the Christian god, I think; he is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and good. Given the state of the world, there is no possible way he could be all three. Any two out of those three I'd give him, but not all three at once.

 

[JarodRussell]

That's the biggest problem with the Christian god, I think; he is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and good. Given the state of the world, there is no possible way he could be all three. Any two out of those three I'd give him, but not all three at once.

Not only the state of the current world. A guy that wipes out entire cities just because the citizens don't do as he wants has anger problems. The bible is full of events where God abused his power out of anger and rage. A horrifying thought.

The bible begins with punishment, features at least two opposing moral concepts (eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek), and ends with the total annihilation of everything we know and even more punishment. It's a very funny faith, if you think about it. At the end of the day it's based on threats. Don't do this, don't do that, do exactly as I say, or you will be punished.

Most human minds have developed much better moral concepts than God himself. I find that pretty interesting.