Another case of how JJ & Co. are under the impression that military assignments are only slightly more complicated than picking sides for dodge ball.
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- Thread starter DarkHorizon
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Another case of how JJ & Co. are under the impression that military assignments are only slightly more complicated than picking sides for dodge ball.
So why the frak is he asking permission to come aboard?
Obviously, there is disagreement on my end.
Oh, it's very relevant; and, basically, we just said the same thing from different viewpoints.
And I'm sorry, but where exactly are we going with this?
(I kinda recalled the 'Sisko in the 24th century' conversation ending several pages ago; and isn't this thread about the horrid film 'Insurrection?')
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kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
No, he wasn't. He was planning on going to help resettle the Vulcans until Spock Prime talked him out of it. When he arrived on the bridge he asked for permission to come aboard. He wouldn't have done that if he were assigned to the ship.
I would think the time to ask permission to come aboard would be in the transporter room, not after making the half-mile trip all the way up to the bridge.
Of all the things wrong with Star Trek 2009, the scenes where Spock becomes XO are pretty low on the totem poll.
I can easily rationalize that Spock hadn't 'officially' resigned when he spoke with Spock Prime and was still slotted to serve aboard the Enterprise. Plus, the XO may not have been a glaring omission for whatever milk-run they were sent out on.
"Enterprise... this is Starfleet. There has been an outbreak of sonic diarrhea on Andoria, get this additional toilet paper there ASAP!"
Because with 'Dennis the Menace' in command that's the most challenging assignment they're going to get. YMMV.
I can easily rationalize that Spock hadn't 'officially' resigned when he spoke with Spock Prime and was still slotted to serve aboard the Enterprise. Plus, the XO may not have been a glaring omission for whatever milk-run they were sent out on.
"Enterprise... this is Starfleet. There has been an outbreak of sonic diarrhea on Andoria, get this additional toilet paper there ASAP!"
Because with 'Dennis the Menace' in command that's the most challenging assignment they're going to get. YMMV.
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McCoy asked for permission to come aboard in TMP and the only reason he was anywhere near a starship was that he was drafted and assigned to the Enterprise.
Also, it may surprise you to realize that some of the dialogue in Star Trek '09 was kind of slipshod. Spock requesting permission to board after arriving at the bridge, Kirk repeatedly saying that Spock had "resigned commission" when he meant "relieved of duty," and Pike using "the Federation" and "Starfleet" interchangeably in the bar are just the things that come to mind immediately.
"Permission to come aboard" is a request made to the officer of the deck (OOD) upon boarding a ship -- even if you are a crewmember aboard that ship.
http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14325/css/14325_258.htm
The OOD is a representative of the captain, and though the link there implies the interaction occurs at the gangway, Wikipedia says that the OOD is normally stationed on the bridge. Which suggests that if you were returning to your own ship, you'd come to the bridge and ask the OOD for permission to come aboard as a formality. Similarly, you need to get the OOD's permission to leave before departing the ship. Starfleet ships don't seem to use the OOD position (though that was basically Worf's job in TNG's first season), so I guess the practice there is to make the request directly of the captain.
And of course Starfleet seems to be lax on following that particular protocol, since we don't usually see people asking permission to leave the ship before beaming down or permission to board upon beaming up.
http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14325/css/14325_258.htm
The OOD is a representative of the captain, and though the link there implies the interaction occurs at the gangway, Wikipedia says that the OOD is normally stationed on the bridge. Which suggests that if you were returning to your own ship, you'd come to the bridge and ask the OOD for permission to come aboard as a formality. Similarly, you need to get the OOD's permission to leave before departing the ship. Starfleet ships don't seem to use the OOD position (though that was basically Worf's job in TNG's first season), so I guess the practice there is to make the request directly of the captain.
And of course Starfleet seems to be lax on following that particular protocol, since we don't usually see people asking permission to leave the ship before beaming down or permission to board upon beaming up.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
So Spock beamed aboard just outside the bridge? He saw no other crew before he got there? Why would he ask for permission to come aboard when he's already on the bridge?
I can see him asking permission if he's just been assigned, coming aboard for the first time like McCoy but there's no indication of that. Spock Prime tells him his place is with Kirk and the next moment he's there asking for a job while Kirk is literally seconds away from pulling out of the parking lot.
I can see him asking permission if he's just been assigned, coming aboard for the first time like McCoy but there's no indication of that. Spock Prime tells him his place is with Kirk and the next moment he's there asking for a job while Kirk is literally seconds away from pulling out of the parking lot.
I didn't say he beamed aboard outside the bridge. You're conflating two unrelated points I was making. I said that permission to come aboard is a request made of the OOD, and the OOD is normally posted on the bridge; therefore it seems possible that a person could board a ship and not make the request until they reached the bridge. You're taking a ritualistic phrase far too literally. It's just a formality. I'm sure I've seen other shows and movies where there was a gap between a person's arrival on board a ship and their official request for permission to come aboard.
That is not how it works. Read the link I provided. "Permission to come aboard" is something that you have to request EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU BOARD A SHIP, EVEN IF IT IS YOUR OWN SHIP. If you serve on a ship and want to leave it, you have to request permission to leave; and then when you come back, you have to request permission to board.
That is not how it works. Read the link I provided. "Permission to come aboard" is something that you have to request EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU BOARD A SHIP, EVEN IF IT IS YOUR OWN SHIP. If you serve on a ship and want to leave it, you have to request permission to leave; and then when you come back, you have to request permission to board.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Which is not the way it is or ever has been portrayed in Star Trek. It's done when you first step onto the ship. We have never seen permission requested EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's actually a fairly rare occurrence. Kirk, Spock & McCoy all request permission as soon as they come aboard. In Kirk's cast it's requested from an unnamed ensign at the cargo deck. Spock asks permission from Chekov at the bridge docking port and McCoy requests permission from Rand (!) even though Kirk is standing right there. It's clear that any permission is given when you first come aboard in Starfleet.
Well, there's a simple way to test this: a Google search for "Permission to come aboard" at Chakoteya's transcript site, which contains all the dialogue from all the episodes.
http://www.google.com/search?q="permission+to+come+aboard"+site:www.chakoteya.net
And I do find two examples that disprove your assumption. In "The Immunity Syndrome," Spock asks "Permission to come aboard" when his shuttle reappears intact at the end of the episode. And get this: While the request is usually made at or before the moment of embarcation, in "The Mind's Eye," Geordi arrives aboard ship in a shuttle, walks to the bridge with Data, and then, once he arrives on the bridge, he asks Captain Picard for permission to come aboard. Exactly like the scene you're complaining about in the movie.
It's also worth noting that in almost every example, the "Permission to come aboard?" request is made to the captain rather than an OOD. The only exceptions are Spock asking Chekov for permission when he boards in TMP and Trip asking Malcolm after his spacewalk from Columbia in "Divergence" -- though in both cases the addressee is the chief of security rather than the OOD.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Interesting site, thanks for pointing it out.
However, the majority of the transcripts still show permission being requested upon arrival. So, it may be normal to ask permission as soon as you step foot on the dec there are times that you do wait until you get somewhere else. Nowhere did I find a case where permission is requested EVERY SINGLE TIME as you put it.
It also doesn't answer the question of how Spock ended up assigned to the Enterprise. Was it official as soon as Kirk accepted his offer to be First Officer? Or why Kirk was leaving port without having a first officer assigned. I know NuKirk is wonderful and all but a second in command is an important position.
However, the majority of the transcripts still show permission being requested upon arrival. So, it may be normal to ask permission as soon as you step foot on the dec there are times that you do wait until you get somewhere else. Nowhere did I find a case where permission is requested EVERY SINGLE TIME as you put it.
It also doesn't answer the question of how Spock ended up assigned to the Enterprise. Was it official as soon as Kirk accepted his offer to be First Officer? Or why Kirk was leaving port without having a first officer assigned. I know NuKirk is wonderful and all but a second in command is an important position.
What bothers me more is that still everyone can just walk onto that bridge without being stopped. That's one of the worst Star Trek "traditions". If they at least made it a plot element once where an assassin walks onto the bridge of a starfleet ship killing half of them before they realize they need to change security protocols. 
What bothers me more is that in a universe with transporters, FTL travel, ships that move at the speed of plot, an organization with so many inherent contradictions it's hilarious, aliens that look exactly like us, an economic system that couldn't possibly work, irrational villains, convenient coincidences, absurd technobabble, entirely contradictory portrayals of several species and organizations that've had to be fanwanked away, production problems, budget issues, absurdly unrealistic portrayals of computers and AI, and about a thousand more contrivances I could probably name if I kept going, we're arguing about when characters are "supposed" to utter an ENTIRELY irrelevant line of dialogue.
This is such an unnecessary argument that calling it an unnecessary argument is an insult to unnecessary arguments.
This is such an unnecessary argument that calling it an unnecessary argument is an insult to unnecessary arguments.
^And yet you still expend the time to comment on it. How necessary is that? 
To be fair, the initial point was that Kirk didn't even bother to get Spock back and that Spock had also already plans to leave Starfleet, and was not about that "Permission to come aboard" line. It was criticism against the characterization of the "friendship" between Kirk and Spock. The point was that there was no such thing because nobody of them cared. One of them had to be talked into it by his future self, and the other one went like "yeah, whatever, welcome back" but didn't actually do anything to get him back. But as with almost every criticism against the movie, the "haters" get then pinned into argument corners so that eventually the "lovers" can say "You're so obsessed with pointless minutiae!"
^And yet you still expend the time to comment on it. How necessary is that?
All part of my diabolical plan - to start an even more unnecessary argument about the necessity of my commenting on a previously extremely unnecessary argument... HAHAHA!
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