"Face the Raven" Grade and Discussion Thread

[Captain Crow]

I thought the episode was bland and predictable.

As soon as they showed Rigsy's daughter I knew he wasn't going to die and thanks to Moff and Co. touting Clara's exit would be heartbreaking it was painfully obvious she'd end up with the tattoo and snuff it.

 

[Venardhi]

The rules still don't make sense to me. That seems to be rather consistent with Moffat's storytelling.

More importantly, everyone just seemed to accept the situation without blaming "Me" for setting things in motion. She started it AND she promised no harm would come to Clara. Why doesn't anyone call her on that or that none of her alien misfits and refugees can ever trust her again after seeing Clara killed by the Raven?

If it can be traded once, why not twice? Why does trading it void the original deal? They may as well have had a giant space bird hatching out of the Doctor's grave and spawning eye-crust monsters to kill her for all the logic presented.

"Cleverness" doesn't make for good storytelling.

 

[MikeS]

After having seen "Heaven Sent", and the Doctors line at the end "I took the long way...", I can't help but think that he was the one who set all this up to get back to Gallifrey. Ergo, is he (indirectly) responsible for Clara's death?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

After having seen "Heaven Sent", and the Doctors line at the end "I took the long way...", I can't help but think that he was the one who set all this up to get back to Gallifrey. Ergo, is he (indirectly) responsible for Clara's death?

that would only work if he memory wormed or retconned himself before the events of this episode because he had no idea who was behind all this in Heaven Sent.

 

[Romulan_spy]

The rules still don't make sense to me. That seems to be rather consistent with Moffat's storytelling.

More importantly, everyone just seemed to accept the situation without blaming "Me" for setting things in motion. She started it AND she promised no harm would come to Clara. Why doesn't anyone call her on that or that none of her alien misfits and refugees can ever trust her again after seeing Clara killed by the Raven?

If it can be traded once, why not twice? Why does trading it void the original deal? They may as well have had a giant space bird hatching out of the Doctor's grave and spawning eye-crust monsters to kill her for all the logic presented.

"Cleverness" doesn't make for good storytelling.

Unfortunately for the quality of the story telling, the episode had to throw consistency out the window because the writers needed Clara to die. There were so many ways that the writers could have saved Clara if they wanted to. The most obvious way would have been for Me to have a change of heart and agree to take the tatoo thing on herself so the raven would go after her instead of Clara.

It also did not make sense to me that Me says that she did not intend anyone to get hurt when clearly if she made this deal whereby someone would get the tatoo and be killed by the raven, then someone would get hurt. The only explanation I can come up with is that Rigbsy getting blamed for the murder was not part of the plan. Me only wanted to draw the Doctor in with the mystery of the hidden street and did not account for Rigbsy being at the wrong place. But even that does not make sense since the only reason the Doctor found out about the mystery street is through Rigbsy asking him for help because of the strange tatoo counting down.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Right.
Me set all this up.

She called Rigsy to lure him to the "crime" scene where she made it look like a murder happened that he would get blamed for and requiring her to put the countdown tattoo on him.
She knew he would call the Doctor on scene even after wiping his memory.
She counted on the Doctor to solve the mystery in time to clear him from blame and remove the tattoo no harm done.
She didn't take into account Clara's recklessness which screwed up her very flawed plan.

 

[Captrek]

Right.
Me set all this up.

She called Rigsy to lure him to the "crime" scene where she made it look like a murder happened that he would get blamed for and requiring her to put the countdown tattoo on him.
She knew he would call the Doctor on scene even after wiping his memory.
She counted on the Doctor to solve the mystery in time to clear him from blame and remove the tattoo no harm done.
She didn't take into account Clara's recklessness which screwed up her very flawed plan.

This is at least as much on Me as on Clara. Me was present when Clara learned that the chronolock could be transferred or removed, but had no way of knowing (or reason to suspect) that a chronolock once transferred could no longer be removed.

Clara's strategy was not completely crazy given what she knew. Me should have anticipated that this was a potential response to Clara's incomplete understanding of the rules, and should never have left Clara with that incomplete understanding. If you inform her that the chronolock can be transferred or removed, you should also inform her that it can't be both.

 

[Romulan_spy]

but had no way of knowing (or reason to suspect) that a chronolock once transferred could no longer be removed.

I don't think the episode makes this clear enough. it certainly seemed to me that the chronolock could be transferred as many times as needed as long as the countdown had not reached 0 and as long as both people agree to the transfer of their own free will.

 

[Captrek]

but had no way of knowing (or reason to suspect) that a chronolock once transferred could no longer be removed.

I don't think the episode makes this clear enough. it certainly seemed to me that the chronolock could be transferred as many times as needed as long as the countdown had not reached 0 and as long as both people agree to the transfer of their own free will.

That's intentional. When Clara learns that the chronolock can't be removed or tranferred back to Rigsy, it comes as surprise to both audience and characters.

(It didn't really, since I knew going in that Clara was doomed. I try to avoid spoilers, but this was spoiled by thread titles in this forum. When Clara took the chronolock, I figured, "Yeah, this is how it happens." It would have been nice to see the episode unspoiled.)

 

[MikeS]

Right.
Me set all this up.

She called Rigsy to lure him to the "crime" scene where she made it look like a murder happened that he would get blamed for and requiring her to put the countdown tattoo on him.
She knew he would call the Doctor on scene even after wiping his memory.
She counted on the Doctor to solve the mystery in time to clear him from blame and remove the tattoo no harm done.
She didn't take into account Clara's recklessness which screwed up her very flawed plan.

I was not denying this. You are correct in your statement. But Me also states that someone asked her to do all that, someone who wanted the Doctor in the confession Dial. There is another level of mystery to this.

The Confession Dial contains this "Castle World", in which, the Doctor lives (as multiple copies) for a few billion years. When he finally breaks through the "diamond wall" (I know it's actually an alien element but I cannot remember the name) he gets to Gallifrey and states that he "took the long way around" to get there.

So I was suggesting that he wanted to get to Gallifrey. That he set up this route of getting there via the "backdoor". And that, in fact, the person who asked Me to set all this up was Himself? Perhaps a future version. This does not require a memory worm or retcon, just four-dimensional thinking.

Which Moffat has proven himself an expert at.

 

[Romulan_spy]

She counted on the Doctor to solve the mystery in time to clear him from blame and remove the tattoo no harm done.
She didn't take into account Clara's recklessness which screwed up her very flawed plan.

The Doctor did prove Rigbsy's innocence so Me should have been able to remove the tatoo from Clara since she was innocent too. I am still not clear as to how Clara "changed the term of the deal" as Me put it. That implies that whomever set this up with Me, specifically wanted Rigbsy to die. The only explanation I can think of is that whomever set up the deal with Me, only gave her the power to remove the chronolock if Rigbsy had it. But I don't think that was stated in the episode.

 

[MikeS]

Because Clara had took the blame and accepted the impending punishment for it, trusting in her "get-out clause". She had in effect admitted guilt. There was no declaring her innocent after that. Despite the fact no crime had been committed. That's how the tattoo exchange worked.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So I was suggesting that he wanted to get to Gallifrey. That he set up this route of getting there via the "backdoor". And that, in fact, the person who asked Me to set all this up was Himself? Perhaps a future version. This does not require a memory worm or retcon, just four-dimensional thinking.

Which Moffat has proven himself an expert at.

Yeah, becuase the Doctor totally killed people in his Time Heist plan.

 

[MikeS]

Unintended consequences. He didn't set out to kill her :roll:

 

[Romulan_spy]

Because Clara had took the blame and accepted the impending punishment for it, trusting in her "get-out clause". She had in effect admitted guilt. There was no declaring her innocent after that. Despite the fact no crime had been committed. That's how the tattoo exchange worked.

It is still a pretty screwed up justice system. Me put the tatoo on Rigbsy despite knowing he was innocent on the grounds that she had to play by the rules of the street to keep the peace since the aliens all thought he was guilty. Now, Clara accepts the guilt of a fake murder so she must die even though she is truly innocent and all the aliens know it. And Me presumably could have removed the tatoo from Rigsby if his innocence could be proven, but she can't remove it from Clara who is clearly innocent? And wouldn't the Aliens be pissed at finding out that the murder never happened and they were all deceived as part of a trap? And why would Me promise Clara that she is safe when she knew that the tatoo could be transferred? Why not warn Clara not to take the tatoo because the death sentence will be final since she claims not to want anyone to get hurt?

I still think the episode had a lot of plot holes.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Unintended consequences. He didn't set out to kill her :roll:

Or he didn't do it, since he looks like he's taking it out on the Timelords next week.

He doesn't strike me as the type of guy who takes things out on innocent bystanders for things he does .

 

[Captrek]

What does it mean when somebody who's been fighting the fight for two billion years says he's barely gotten started?

 

[MikeS]

In his mind he was only there for a couple of days/weeks.

 

[MikeS]

Sorry, I've just realised that this is the wrong thread! Meant to have this discussion in the review for "Heaven Scent".

 

[Marsden]

Because Clara had took the blame and accepted the impending punishment for it, trusting in her "get-out clause". She had in effect admitted guilt. There was no declaring her innocent after that. Despite the fact no crime had been committed. That's how the tattoo exchange worked.

It is still a pretty screwed up justice system. Me put the tatoo on Rigbsy despite knowing he was innocent on the grounds that she had to play by the rules of the street to keep the peace since the aliens all thought he was guilty. Now, Clara accepts the guilt of a fake murder so she must die even though she is truly innocent and all the aliens know it. And Me presumably could have removed the tatoo from Rigsby if his innocence could be proven, but she can't remove it from Clara who is clearly innocent? And wouldn't the Aliens be pissed at finding out that the murder never happened and they were all deceived as part of a trap? And why would Me promise Clara that she is safe when she knew that the tatoo could be transferred? Why not warn Clara not to take the tatoo because the death sentence will be final since she claims not to want anyone to get hurt?

I still think the episode had a lot of plot holes.

Or one huge one, plus the most anticlimactic and poorly done death scene of a major character.

I mean, this reminds me of:

Homer: D'oh! Oh no...better ride this one out in the closet.
[opens it to see Bart and Lisa standing there]
Lisa: Sorry, Dad. This is our spot.
Homer: Oh yeah? Well it's _my_ house, so it's _my_ spot.
Bart: N'uh uh, because we called it.
Homer: Did not!
Lisa: Well, we're calling it now.
Homer: [plaintive] You are?
Bart: 'Fraid so.
Homer: Ohh, they got me with their legal mumbo-jumbo.

It's not good to make the Doctor as dumb as Homer Simpson.