Ezri or Sarina?

[Thestral]

On the contrary. Assuming she felt some need to "make things right" (which we can't assume since five years have passed, and the necessity of which I'd dispute anyway), it doesn't neccessarily follow that they'd get back together. Acknowledging a hurt you've caused somebody doesn't require returning to that situation even if it would be healthy, and that's where I feel it would be a step back.

Still, it would be healthy, and even in the end of Unjoined, they acknowledge that they still love each other.

And they were so right together--and they so clearly love each other (to say nothing of the fact that Ezri's innermost feelings, which were forced out for Worf to see, from the deepest corner of her heart...)--that somehow...again, it's like Riker and Troi. Imzadi, if you will.

It's very possible for two people to still love each other but with the realization that they won't work. It's what she and Worf essentially did, after all. It's not the necessary way the story will go, but both options are open.

I certainly wasn't cheering for them to break up, but I'm content with how things played out. As far as her innermost feelings being forced out... let's not forget that she was still less-than-a-year Joined (thus dealing with memories including Jadzia's), conflicted because of said memories and relationships especially WRT to Worf, and in the middle of a highly traumatic experience - she was being tortured after all. I'm sure Zee meant what she was saying, but I think reading too much into it is risky because of that.

(And as a sidenote, I'm wondering if Ezri's time in Breen captivity will be reflected on in Zero Sum Game? Seeing how she deals with them might be interesting if there's lingering trauma)

I was really, really, hoping for a Jake/Ezri 'ship. I think it would've been fantastic! I'd read a (well-written) fanfic that explored that for sure.

It's interesting--in "Shadows and Symbols" Jake on the runabout gives all the indications of "Hey...don't worry, honey...I'm here for you...."

Ezri seems innocently unaware of his flirtations. She interacts with him as if there's no subtext at all--leaving poor Jake kinda bewildered....

That's is a big part of her charm, I think, that she's seemingly unconcious of the effect she has on men. In "Once More Unto The Breach", she acts like she doesn't get that Quark is jealous of the Worf--and she takes his advice seriously.

Well, granted. Mostly I just think it would be have been an amazingly fascinating dynamic for the Sisko clan and Dax. How would Ben feel with Jake dating this young woman that used to be his trusted friend and colleague... let alone used to be his grumpy old mentor? And how would Jake feel knowing that his girlfriend could literally remember him in diapers, was a really close friend of his dad's, and has known him since he was born despite also being the same age or so?

Plus it would've given Jake something useful to do, which was sorely needed.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Garak. That "ship" strikes me as a lot more interesting than either of the ones mentioned in the poll.

 

[ares93]

Garak. That "ship" strikes me as a lot more interesting than either of the ones mentioned in the poll.

the aventine? its a prototype vessel with a quantum slipstream drive. ergo the shape. pretty hardcore if you ask me. check out SOTL 2010

 

[ProtoAvatar]

As far as on-screen events - and not only - go, Bashir is in love with Ezri and viceversa.
As for Sarina, at one time Bashir had a crush on her, and she was creeped out by it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Woah.

The event that shocked the TrekBBS...ProtoAvatar and Rush Limborg AGREE!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

^Woah.

The event that shocked the TrekBBS...ProtoAvatar and Rush Limborg AGREE!

Yes, this just won't do.
I guess there's no escaping it - You'll just have to change your opinion, Rush Limborg.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Hardly.

I pride myself on my integrity. If either of us is to change his position...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Hardly.

I pride myself on my integrity. If either of us is to change his position...

Either you agree with me, contradicting your rezolution to never be in this situation, or you change your mind regarding Ezri&Bashir=lovebirds.

It seems you are in an untenable position, Rush Limborg.

 

[Rush Limborg]

(Takes a gracious bow)

I surrender to your whim, good sir:

I, Rush Limborg, Supreme Diddodrone of the Conservative Collective, do now acknowledge, with the greatest begrudging regret, that I now find myself in full and complete agreement with ProtoAvatar, on the issue of the positive validity of the Ezri/Bashir romantic relationship.

()

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

You should have put a neither choice because I think both relationships were pretty creepy. Sarina was just a badly conceived complete violation of medical ethics. And the whole idea of Bashir and Quark lusting after Ezri after they lusted after Jadzia just seems wrong to me. It's like your wife dying and you start going out with her twin sister. Besides none of Bashir's love interests had anything in common which only enhances the idea that he was more of a player than a one woman man.

 

[Treker]

I really feel there were many aspects of Jadzia that didn't line up with Ezri.

Jadzia had an open disgust for sexual relations with Julian.

Maybe they are trying to tell us the simbiant is not giving out sexual feeling but this can be dismissed because of the lesbian stuff with the former lover.

It just doesn't make sense.

Julian and Sarina was true love. 2 mutants, super intelligent and alone in the universe as all the other mutants are too crazy to be let out in public.

Good thread and the point is well made.

Dax was not attracted to Julian in any way shape or form.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

(Takes a gracious bow)

I surrender to your whim, good sir:

I, Rush Limborg, Supreme Diddodrone of the Conservative Collective, do now acknowledge, with the greatest begrudging regret, that I now find myself in full and complete agreement with ProtoAvatar, on the issue of the positive validity of the Ezri/Bashir romantic relationship.

()

What? Don't interrupt me during my evil laughter!
Now, where was I? A, yes:

 

[DevilEyes]

I really feel there were many aspects of Jadzia that didn't line up with Ezri.

Jadzia had an open disgust for sexual relations with Julian.

Eh, don't you think that's a bit exaggerated, to say the least? Jadzia never seemed to have any serious romantic interest in Julian - maybe she found him likable, but too immature and childish - but she never showed anything approaching "disgust" for him or a relationship with him.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You should have put a neither choice because I think both relationships were pretty creepy.

Oh, I was considering it, but I was all too aware that ifI did, we'd get a bunch of smart aleck who'd say "Garak"....

Sarina was just a badly conceived complete violation of medical ethics.

I dunno. I always saw it as his grasping at straws becasue of his growing sadness at being alone.

And the whole idea of Bashir and Quark lusting after Ezri after they lusted after Jadzia just seems wrong to me. It's like your wife dying and you start going out with her twin sister.

Uh...they weren't married. And I'd hardly think Ezri is comparable to Jadzia's twin sister--they're so very different, and sisters don't have one's memories, etc.

Besides none of Bashir's love interests had anything in common which only enhances the idea that he was more of a player than a one woman man.

Actually...I think his choices improve as he grows as a man. And they do show a pattern.

He starts out going for a woman who is not compatable with him--let alone willing. (Jadzia)

Next, there was Melora--and by this time, Julian has built up his confidence, to the point that he can handle her attitude with charm and wit. Also, he builds her up, helping her learn to get out of her sensitive shell, and accept who she is. But of course, her inner conflicts lead her away.

Leeta is a sweet girl--and innocent, one could say. Of course, she's a BIT too simple for Bashir....

My point is, we see in this an increase in compatibility. This is directly due to Julian's refining and emotional growth, from a boy to a man.

By the time he interacts with Sarina, his standards are more or less hammered out. And if you analyze Sarina and Ezri, it's amazing how similar they are in quite a few respects--in personality (both have, for example, a rather playful sense of humor), in warmth towards others, in childlike wonder, in enthusiasm towards life--and in the quality of vulnerability. (Not weakness, mind you--but the recognition of one's limits, and the subconcious desire to look to the man for help when they're down.)

The difference between the two, of course, is in maturity--Sarina proves herself, in the end, too emotionally unsure of herself to know what to do. And indeed, Julian realizes that in his desperate desire to not be alone, he pushed her too far.

One could actually say that, for all her qualities, Sarina is tragically lacking in the quality of inner strength--the strength of will necessary to face the trials of life. Ezri is the better in this regard--she has, I think, the appropriate balance between inner strength and vulnerability.

But you see that there are qualities, indeed, in his past loves that point to these standards he will form. Melora, for example, has vulnerability--as she opens up to a stronger, wiser Bashir. Leeta is sweet, charming, and pleasant.

It's a path, as it were--a path of development.

I really feel there were many aspects of Jadzia that didn't line up with Ezri.

Jadzia had an open disgust for sexual relations with Julian.

It's not so much disgust as it was "Julian, we joined Trill usually consider ourselves above such childish things...."

Which is worse.

But yes--Ezri's feelings towards Julian are far different from Jadzia's. I'll give ya that.

Julian and Sarina was true love. 2 mutants, super intelligent and alone in the universe as all the other mutants are too crazy to be let out in public.

Still...the idea of love was too much for her to handle....

Dax was not attracted to Julian in any way shape or form.

Which proves my assertion that Ezri's feelings are Ezri's feelings.

 

[Myasishchev]

Uh...they weren't married. And I'd hardly think Ezri is comparable to Jadzia's twin sister--they're so very different, and sisters don't have one's memories, etc.

Yeah, more like Rei from Evangelion. "I created a clone of my wife and raised her to have sex with me, and to fight aliens. This is what they call 'win-win.' "

Okay, maybe that's not analogous either.

Besides none of Bashir's love interests had anything in common which only enhances the idea that he was more of a player than a one woman man.

They all lived on DS9. Mate choice is like 95% opportunity.

And, at any rate, they were all rather messed up. Sarina was recently cured of a severe neurological issue, Ezri was dragooned into saving some parasite*, and Leeta was mentally retarded. As Jonathan Archer once said, the injured gazelle tastes the sweetest. Or something like that.

*And this is one really heavy scene. Can you imagine a human doing this? I bet there's another episode, probably more than one episode, where the moral choice was to save some alien by merging with it, and the answer involved the sacrosanct preservation of the human's identity and individuality. I mean, even given that Ezri probably has nothing specifically against the concept of joining, she apparently didn't pursue it herself, and being asked to save some gut-slug you don't even know is one truly harsh toke.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I hardly think Leeta was mentally retarded. That was most uncalled for, sir.


But anyhow...I would say part of what makes Melora, Sarina, and Ezri so impressive is that they were willing to struggle and overcome their trials, and triumph--albiet, Ezri was somewhat more successful--both with her triumph, and with her relationship with Julian.

The willingness and ability to triumph over one's obstacles is the quality of a hero--or heroine.

 

[Myasishchev]

It's hyperbole, but she was not (and not meant to be) very smart. She was also in a rather exploited position (economically... perhaps sexually?) for a rather long time, so she has that going for her, damage-wise.

 

[jonnycarnahan]

Jadzia had an open disgust for sexual relations with Julian.

That's funny, because Ezri told Julian that if Worf hadn't come along, Jadzia would have chosen him. I'm also of the opinion personally, that Dax, the symbiont, did love Julian.

 

[tatterdemallion]

^I always found that an intriguing question: how much of the symbiont's feelings come into play? I also think that Dax (the symbiont) feels something akin to love for Julian, mainly based on things that have happened in the books; I'm just not sure how that might be expressed... Oh, and hi everyone; haven't been here in awhile.

 

[ares93]

^I always found that an intriguing question: how much of the symbiont's feelings come into play? I also think that Dax (the symbiont) feels something akin to love for Julian, mainly based on things that have happened in the books; I'm just not sure how that might be expressed... Oh, and hi everyone; haven't been here in awhile.

if you watch AR-558 ezri claims that she remembers how being on the front lines feel. so i guess i can be possible that the symbiont influences the host. but there's been no confirmation that the trill symbionts are sentient so technically you cant prove either. aside from Unjoined (Trill) which can be debated if its canon.

personally i dont see why not the symbiont cant have feelings for someone. and i see the symbionts as sentient beings.