Exaclibur or EAS Excalibur?

[Reverend]

I'm wouldn't say that just because something implicitly exists makes it canon, or notable enough to merit a wiki page. I wouldn't expect that a page on MaintBox 13 that detonated the evil space probe in that season 3 episode would mean that there should then be entries for MaintBots 1 through 12.

Indeed. It ain't canon 'til it's canon.
The Omega thing is also complicated by the fact that there's and Earthforce transport 'Omega' mentioned and seen in 'By Any Means Necessary' (I think.) Needless to say it was not a destroyer. In fact I'm pretty sure it was one of these things.
On top of all that, JMS has explicitly said the first Omega was the the Achilles. End of.

<salivates at the sound of the bell>

I actually own that particular prop. I'll take a look at it and the Crusade Bible when I get home.

Ombuds Jan

ETA: I forgot - I've got a photo of it online. http://photos.b5archivist.com/GalleryFilmstrip.aspx?gallery=212359&mid=7083446&mt=Photo&ci=008 It does only say Excalibur. I'll still check the show bible when I have a chance.

Thank you Ivan Pavlov. Lucky for me that trick is only ineffective on cats.

Well, if it was mentioned, it should at least have an article page. Its not like the article is taking up valuable Babylon 5 Wiki space, the wiki only has 2700 articles and even then there is a lot of doubling up on articles especially with the civilian freighters.

You do know that the value of a wiki isn't measured by the quantity of articles but by the quality, right? I seriously doubt anyone's going to want look up things on a B5 wiki that were never said to have existed. As David cgc said, if someone where to make an article of every little thing that might exist (from planets to PPGs models) based on numbering or naming schemes then it'd be a horrible, useless mess of a wiki.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

I do know what the value of a wiki. It is a ship that I am referring to right? Not basing an article on an implied existence of let's say main bot 12? I don't see a problem with having main bot 13 as a page. If MA can having a page about the USS Farragut from Star Trek 09 which is only a couple of lines, why not main bot 13?

Well we do have real world examples of a navy borrowing another navy's ship and using their own prefix as such and then returning it. So, is it Excalibur or EAS Excalibur? I tend to the latter because Gideon called as such, the crew are Earthforce, and the ship is in Earthforce on loan.

 

[Reverend]

^There's also the small matter than EF already has an "EAS Excalibur" mentioned in 'Point of No Return' IIRC. Sure it could have been destroyed at some point off screen, but that was never established so any claim to the contrary is just pure speculation.

At the moment, bottom line is that the ONLY place the ship is referred to as such in in the opening credits and nowhere else. Not in the show itself, not in any of the novels on the (2 or 3?) occasions it's mentioned and i don't think JMS ever referred to it as such. So unless Jan comes up with some explicit evidence to the contrary, I think the balance of evidence is quite clear.

If it were any other detail in this kind of scenario, the logical course is to discount the exception. Let's say for the sake of argument that in the opening credit's Gideon introduces himself not as a Captain, but just as commander. Would we take that as definitive proof that everything in the show from the dialogue to his costume got his rank "wrong", or just write it off as a misleading turn of phrase? The latter, obviously.

Incidentally, the Excalibur wasn't crewed solely by Earthforce. It's a combined crew of EF, IPX and the EAHO with some Ranger support. Indeed, if you look at the set decoration in the briefing room this is quire clearly reflected. There's even a ship's seal in the middle of the table (in some episodes at least, that set got redressed several times) and yes, it just says "Excalibur."

 

[Hyperspace05]

ProwlAlpha, just give up. You are almost certainly wrong on this issue.

When you have dug yourself a hole, you stop digging and get out. Not keep digging yourself deeper.

 

[Bishop76]

Well, one thing is certain - I really want to play B5 Wars now. I don't know who mentioned that earlier, but damn you for making me wish I could play it again.

 

[Sindatur]

Honestly, does it matter that much? If it's EAS Excalibur, does that not make calling it simply Excalibur for short accurate? I'm not sure how leaving EAS off it in general conversation means it can't be EAS, or calling it EAS means you can't simply call it Excalibur in general conversation.

The USS Enterprise, is often referred to as simply "The Enterprise" without the USS.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

ProwlAlpha, just give up. You are almost certainly wrong on this issue.

When you have dug yourself a hole, you stop digging and get out. Not keep digging yourself deeper.

Since, I have had responses to equal to and against, no hole. However, Reverend does make a good convincing argument.

 

[timothy]

I mentioned the babylon 5 wars its a great starship battles game and you can get most of the ships on ebay or amazon . I collected all the fleet favorites were the narn and minbari. also, collected the star trek starfleet battles minatures as well.
I love starship's and starship desighns but babylon 5 23rd century is so much better
than the federation . though I love the 24th century next gen desighns.

 

[Bishop76]

Yeah, I still have all my B5W stuff, I just don't have any local friends to play it with any more! It was my nerd war-game of choice back in the day - I was partial to the EarthForce.

 

[timothy]

the best thing about babylon 5 was the use of fighters like star wars.
the federation does'nt use fighters till the dominion war which sucks.
also warhammer 40k universe which also use's fighters. fighters are
essential to space combat not runabouts or shuttles .


currently reeading STAR TREK ENTERPRISE : DAEDALUS'S CHILDREN
currently watching SUPERNATURAL season 5

 

[Jan]

Okay, I'm home now and I've got the Crusade Writer's Bible here. Under the entry for Captain Gideon it states:

After the Drakh plague was released, the Excalibur was given to Earth by President Sheridan to assist with the search for a cure.

(emphasis mine)

I also checked with a friend (editor on the script books) who's much more interested in the ships than I am and he says that in one episode there was definitely an 'EAS Excalibur' visible on one of the walls. He thinks it might have been in "The Long Road" but wasn't sure.

Like (I believe) somebody upthread mentioned, his theory was that the Crusade flagship was only referred to as the Excalibur in order to not be confused with the previously heard-of Earth Force Excalibur. Since the Crusade flagship was intended to be an IAS (or IA if you go by the Lost Tales convention), this might make sense.

However, in the Writer's Style Guide that came with the bible, the ship is only called Excalibur. In some other cases, there are references such as 'Hydra, the Earth Alliance Destroyer' and 'Medusa, Omega Class Destroyer'.

My strictly unofficial feeling is that given the opening sequence and the fact that the bible clearly states that the ship was given, not just loaned, that it really is one of possibly two EAS Excaliburs.

Jan
Ombuds & archivist (yeah, they really call me that in the script books)

 

[Reverend]

While we're at it, anyone know where the term "Victory Class" comes from when referencing that design? Is that just something the RPGs made up (obviously based on the sister ship from 'A Call to Arms') or is there an actual canon source for it? Near as I can tell it's only ever referred to in general terms like the "prototype destroyer" or the "destroyer class white star."

Okay, I'm home now and I've got the Crusade Writer's Bible here. Under the entry for Captain Gideon it states:

After the Drakh plague was released, the Excalibur was given to Earth by President Sheridan to assist with the search for a cure.

(emphasis mine)

That's actually quite interesting since I did a little digging through my transcripts and came up with this from 'Patterns of the Soul': -

"General Thompson, you don't understand. We are minutes away from a new destination with some good leads."

"I don't care what you're minutes away from. I have express permission from President Sheridan to use the Excalibur for this mission."

Then there's this from 'Racing the Night' :-

"Captain Gideon was chosen personally by President Sheridan to lead this mission. As head of the Interstellar Alliance and the one who's providing us with The Excalibur-"

Whatever the arrangement might be, these do appear to indicate that the ship wasn't meant to have been entierly given over to the EA. Clearly if an EF General needs to clear it with Sheridan before he issues orders to one of his own people the ISA is playing a bigger role in the mission than was made readily apparent in the show. I mean you'd think if it "belonged" to the EA they could essentially do as they pleased with it. No? Honestly, I think it's entirely possible that this was one of those details that was never solidly locked down (understandably so, given the near constant upheavals), or changed mid-way though production which is why we're left with these scant contradictory or ambiguous scraps of evidence.

Still, I'll have a look at 'The Long Road' and see if I can't spot that bit of set dressing (joy.) Bit ironic that our two best competing pieces of evidence come from the same episode. Ah well.
​

 

[timothy]

the victory class was probably from the english navy hence the H.M.S VICTORY. IT WAS LORD NELSON'S FLAG SHIP AND IT WAS A SHIP OF THE LINE . AWESOME BATTLESHIP FROM THE 1750'S.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Another question has popped up, well he has acted, is there any proof that the Excalibur was called an Victory-class destroyer?

 

[Jan]

I don't understand the question. Who has acted and what's it got to do with the Excalibur?

If the question was directed at me, that is...

Jan

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Sorry, the B5 wiki editor who is essentially going through an anal mode and changing everything that he believes is non-canon and now he is saying since he haven't found anything that says the Excalibur is a Victory class destroyer it needs to be changed to Prototype Destroyer Type. I am asking is there any JMS-approved material that shows that it is a Victory-class or not?

 

[Jan]

Not in the Crusade Bible. If it's anywhere, it would probably be in the TV movie "A Call to Arms" and I don't recall it there. Don't have time to read the script so somebody'll have to fire up the DVD.

I don't understand...why have a resource that quotes non-canon items? Shouldn't that be a separate item, such as for the rpg?

Jan

 

[Reverend]

I've already checked the transcripts and it's defiantly not in 'A Call To Arms' or any episode of Crusade for that matter. It's only ever referred to in general terms like "a destroyer class white star", "the destroyer prototype(s)" or as a "deep-range military research vessel." Looks like this is an RPG invention.

Of course since they only ever actually made two prototypes it's possible there never was any official name since the design never went into full class production. But that's just speculation. Sheridan said in 'A Call to Arms' that they'd have to start over from scratch, but it's not clear if he means to produce more ships of this design or to start the design process over again.

Interestingly, the one of the unfilmed Crusade scripts does make imply that there might be another Excalibur type ship sneaking about out there, or at least a ship that has the same big honking Vorlon death ray do-dad.

 

[Jan]

I just took a look at the first Crusade book which included many instances of the concept art which only refers to the new ship as a battleship. In the second of two premises, JMS wrote:

He has come to reveiw the first two prototypes of a new kind of warship. Much bigger than the White Stars used previously by the Alliance, this new warship is in the Destroyer category...a much bigger ship.

No mention of any named class, I'm afraid.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

^Yeah, I'm flicking through the ACtA script now. Same deal, no specific class name just descriptive terms. Here's how the ships are described during their reveal.

...Combinations of Minbari and Human and even a touch of Vorlon technologies. They are identical in every way except name: one is the Excalibur, the other is the Victory.
<snip>...These are destroyer or battleship class ships, several times the size of a White Star...all high tech and sleek lines and utterly deadly looking.