Essay to write: please help!

[RevdKathy]

Hi all,

I have to write an essay on the nature of consciousness. And I thought I'd use the TNG discussion about Data's 'sentience' (or lack of it) to contribute to my material.

As I recall, one of the key episodes in that is 'The measure of a Man' (which I have dragged out of the attic). Are there any other whole eps I ought to look out for?

In addition, as the subject occured repeatedly in the background for several of the early seasons, are there any other bits I ought to investigate?

Finally, you TNG experts, please can you help me with some exact quotes.

In 'Skin of Evil' Data describes his 'experience' of grieving for Tasha: I'd like his exact words.

Worse in an ep I can't even place, he talks about the experience of playing the violin, drawing on the performances of several other noteworthy players, but bewails his inability to create his own performance. What does he say - and what was Picards response? (I think something about the combination being his own).

I have a pile of really heavy texts on consciousness and qualia to wade through: I plan to produce something about Data - and reference Spock's use of mind-meld. Just to be different...

Thanking you in advance!

 

[tomalak301]

I would say watch Quality of Life. It deals with kind of the same thing as Measure of a Man, but it's about Data protecting the machines. Also, the Offspring is another good one.

 

[startrekwatcher]

RevdKathy said:Worse in an ep I can't even place, he talks about the experience of playing the violin, drawing on the performances of several other noteworthy players, but bewails his inability to create his own performance. What does he say - and what was Picards response? (I think something about the combination being his own).

"Ensigns of Command" from Season Three at the very end.

 

[TrueQ]

Here are Data's exact words of grieving for Tasha:
Data: "Sir, the point of this gathering eludes me. My thoughts are not for Tasha, but for myself. I keep thinking how empty it will be without her presence. Did I miss the point?"
Picard: "No, Data. You got it."

 

[WillsBabe]

Here is a TNG script archive. That might help. I know that there are some scripts out there (although I don't know about this site) that are shooting scripts or drafts rather than the aired episode.

 

[RevdKathy]

TrueQ said:
Here are Data's exact words of grieving for Tasha:
Data: "Sir, the point of this gathering eludes me. My thoughts are not for Tasha, but for myself. I keep thinking how empty it will be without her presence. Did I miss the point?"
Picard: "No, Data. You got it."

Thank you - that's certainly useful. Where, though, is the bit where he talks about having laid down familiar pathways in his awareness of someone such that when they are not there he misses them? Is that not Skin of Evil? (I'm trying to capture Data's sense of 'I')

Thanks for the other suggestions, too - I think I have 'Ensigns of Command' in the attic.

Edit to add - thanks for the script archive too. The last scene of 'Ensigns of Command' is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for!

Edit again - what was the ep about a holographic entity that 'became sentient'?

 

[WillsBabe]

RevdKathy said:
Thank you - that's certainly useful. Where, though, is the bit where he talks about having laid down familiar pathways in his awareness of someone such that when they are not there he misses them?

I think that might be from Time's Arrow. I can't recall Data saying the above but I seem to recall a conversation with Riker, Troi and Data in which Riker says to Data something like, "It's just that our pathways have got used to you..."

Yes, just checked Riker and Troi have that conversation in Time's Arrow. Data must make the comments you are thinking of earlier in the episode.

 

[Holdfast]

Interesting essay.

Trekkie areas to consider -

- contrasting Borg shared consciousness vs Data's personal experience of consciousness (First Contact (movie), Descent, Family, I Borg and other eps reflect on this difference).

- the overlapping but not necessary relationship between life and consciousness: the exocomp episode (can't remember the title), Home Soil, the S3 premiere with the guy who later played Bob Kelso is Scrubs guest-starring (can't remember the title), Measure of a Man, the Moriarty eps and many many others. TNG did LOTS of eps around this theme.

I'll post again if I can think of more...

 

[RevdKathy]

WillsBabe said:

RevdKathy said:
Thank you - that's certainly useful. Where, though, is the bit where he talks about having laid down familiar pathways in his awareness of someone such that when they are not there he misses them?

I think that might be from Time's Arrow. I can't recall Data saying the above but I seem to recall a conversation with Riker, Troi and Data in which Riker says to Data something like, "It's just that our pathways have got used to you..."

Yes, just checked Riker and Troi have that conversation in Time's Arrow. Data must make the comments you are thinking of earlier in the episode.

That's exactly it! Thank you!

Holdie, Moriarty was the hologram I was thinking of - thanks. I've looked at the exocomps.

Basically, I have first off to produce about 500 words that will show that I've understood some of the basic problems of the distinction betwen third-party analysis of consciousness (cognitive/neurphysiological etc) and first person experience of it. The philosophical claim is that there comes a point where the scientist's viewpoint cannot but be influenced by his/her own underlying assumpions about the nature of consciousness.

On that basis, the stuff about Data in 'The measure of a man' becomes relevent. Data seems to exhibit the same 'I-tags' as any other person. He himself denies 'feeling' - because everyone tells him he doesn't have it. In practice, I have no idea that the experience of being me bears any relation to the experience of being you, from a first person perspective. I assume it to be similar because we are similar biological entities. The assumption by some of starfleet that Data cannot experience qualia is based on their presumptions about a mechanical brain, as it cannot be based on first-person experience.

Of course, all that gets very muddy when you throw in the notion of mind-meld by which one could know another's unique first-person perspective...

Anyway, the philosophy books on qualia don't actually say it any better than Star Trek in the end!

 

[JoshKelly]

Hey if your thinking about spocks mind meld you could go onto the descuton about how men (thats us) could possibly be able to know how to sence eath others conscience and how that would help us but dont listen to me Ive just joined,
anyway bye.

 

[RevdKathy]

Don't disappear, cadet. That's exactly the issue: we take each others' consciousness for granted, though we have no sensory or even philosphical certainty of it. In the end, the only person I know 'experiences' existence is me, from the inside. Were mind-meld possible, in the fashion exhibited by Spock in TOS, it would be possible to establish that someone else 'experiences' existence.

Mind, you get a little distracted if you start leaving your katra lying around in your friends...

 

[CaptainStoner]

Mind-meld of a kind can and does occur, not necessarily like a Vulcan meld, but it can happen.
I accidentally got 'entwined' with someone else's self-identity for a while. It wasn't unlike what happened to McCoy.
But the scientists out there would just call that a psychotic episode. Them scientists. The tree doesn't make a noise to them if they can't measure it, even if the damn thing falls on their heads.

 

[Timo47]

RevdKathy said:
In 'Skin of Evil' Data describes his 'experience' of grieving for Tasha: I'd like his exact words.

The episode with Tasha's sister, "Legacy", may also be of interest to you.

ISHARA
Are you able to have friends?

DATA
Yes.

ISHARA
But you don't have feelings, do you?

DATA
Not as such. However, perhaps
even among humans, friendship is
sometimes less an emotional
response, and more a sense of
familiarity.

ISHARA
(understanding)
You can become used to someone.

DATA
Exactly. As I experience certain
sensory input patterns, my mental
pathways become accustomed to
them. The inputs eventually are
anticipated. And even "missed"
when absent. When something once
expected is no longer there.

 

[Pheon]

WillsBabe said:
Here is a TNG script archive. That might help. I know that there are some scripts out there (although I don't know about this site) that are shooting scripts or drafts rather than the aired episode.

Star Trek Minutiae has the most comprehensive listing of Star Trek scripts I've seen on the web, so if you’re looking for that material the link is here to that section of the website: http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/index.html

It contains all of scripts for TNG, DS9, the Movies, along with a few select Voyager episodes as well.

 

[RevdKathy]

Thanks everyone - great stuff! The quote from 'Legacy' is exactly what Troi is quoting in 'Times Arrow'.

Scripts are also very useful for quotations purposes.