Saying that what differentiates genocide from other human rights abuses is courage is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. Do not empower the Amon Goeth's of the world.
Eradicating Earth
- Thread starter TribbleFeeder
- Start date
I think you’re taking his comments out of context. He’s just saying that all Cardassians want to be like Dukat because he’s the embodiment of what they are supposed to be. His full post makes it pretty clear that Dukat is evil. He literally called him a monster.
Brutality is ingrained into Cardassian culture. But there's a difference between the people who just go along with the trend because it's expected and people who go out of the way to make it worse for their personal pathos.
Indeed. But then there's also the fantasy level to all this, which makes it difficult to read people even amidst verifiable atrocities. Dukat was a dutiful little Nazi who did evil things for the Party definition of greater good. It's possible that he was also a sadist who wanted to do even more, and sometimes did. But it's also possible Dukat was merely a pitiful little closet sadist who never would have had the guts to go through with the things he later boasted on - at a point where the power/burden of making the decision was taken off his wimpy shoulders - and this is exactly why he made the boasts. In essence, his "confession" would be no more genuine than Aamin Marritza's.
Seems the "guts" thing raises concern here. It really shouldn't. Evil takes guts just like good, when it involves going past the threshold of the accepted. Courage isn't a virtue - it's an expression of lack of ability to discern and yield to norms and pressures that uphold a society. On random occasions, exhibiting courage may lead into a better society. On most occasions, it merely upsets the society, leads to great suffering, and may or may not facilitate personal gain but even then is followed by retribution.
Never mistake courage for integrity, or fools for heroes, or fantasy for reality. Either on the internet, or out there.
Timo Saloniemi
Seems the "guts" thing raises concern here. It really shouldn't. Evil takes guts just like good, when it involves going past the threshold of the accepted. Courage isn't a virtue - it's an expression of lack of ability to discern and yield to norms and pressures that uphold a society. On random occasions, exhibiting courage may lead into a better society. On most occasions, it merely upsets the society, leads to great suffering, and may or may not facilitate personal gain but even then is followed by retribution.
Never mistake courage for integrity, or fools for heroes, or fantasy for reality. Either on the internet, or out there.
Timo Saloniemi
One could argue courage is the ability to act more based on rewards than risks, which is easily confusable with a central trait of sociopaths.
Dukat was clearly more than a dutiful member of the party. Other dutiful members of the party didn't have the personal vindictive streak, Tain notwithstanding. His personal stories about his past are stories of going against the grain. A dutiful member of the party wouldn't have claimed to have pushed for reform of how Bajorans were treated, or felt entitled to treatment like a God for his magnanimity. Dutiful members of the party did not seek personal praise, they only sought to do their duty, and would never brag about going against the grain.
I wouldn't necessarily even call Dukat a sadist. It's not inflicting pain that he cared about except with Sisko at the end (Because he was vindictive, not because he was a sadist). He cared about being considered superior, and the only way to do that to Sisko at the end was to inflict pain. He was equally happy being considered superior by making Kira's mother love him as he was being considered superior by destroying someone.
Dukat was clearly more than a dutiful member of the party. Other dutiful members of the party didn't have the personal vindictive streak, Tain notwithstanding. His personal stories about his past are stories of going against the grain. A dutiful member of the party wouldn't have claimed to have pushed for reform of how Bajorans were treated, or felt entitled to treatment like a God for his magnanimity. Dutiful members of the party did not seek personal praise, they only sought to do their duty, and would never brag about going against the grain.
I wouldn't necessarily even call Dukat a sadist. It's not inflicting pain that he cared about except with Sisko at the end (Because he was vindictive, not because he was a sadist). He cared about being considered superior, and the only way to do that to Sisko at the end was to inflict pain. He was equally happy being considered superior by making Kira's mother love him as he was being considered superior by destroying someone.
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One thing many forget is that after "Sacrifice of Angels", during the seventh season, there is a dialogue between Weyoun and the female changeling about who gets to rule Earth after she promised to give the planet to the Breen in case of victory.
Weyoun was disappointed at first, because he wanted to rule the planet. So either the plans of the Dominion had changed or they never wanted to really eradicate the humans on Earth.
What do you think?
Weyoun was disappointed at first, because he wanted to rule the planet. So either the plans of the Dominion had changed or they never wanted to really eradicate the humans on Earth.
What do you think?
^I think that scene shows foremost that the Founders think they can hand out promises without necessarily keeping them - probably because they think they are so far above solids that promises to them don't really count, or some such thing.
The female founder decided on a whim that the entire Cardassian population had to be exterminated, a people they were allied with up until that point, just because their military switched sides. So why such a decision require any more deliberation on their parts, or what would make them have any compunctions, when it came to eradicating Earth?
The female founder decided on a whim that the entire Cardassian population had to be exterminated, a people they were allied with up until that point, just because their military switched sides. So why such a decision require any more deliberation on their parts, or what would make them have any compunctions, when it came to eradicating Earth?
The interesting part is that Weyoun actually thinks that he gets to rule Earth, after telling Dukat about eradicating the population.
So there must be a reason for his change of mind.
This is what Weyoun says:
So he expects to get the territory, not necessarily that the Founders will spare any of the indigenous population before they give him that jurisdiction. And anyways, even if he were it wouldn't matter, as the founders are Gods to him, absolutely free to do as they choose.
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Not on a whim. The Founders decided to exterminate the Cardassians back in "The Die Is Cast" when they attacked the Founders' home world. That's what the Female Changling said in "Broken Link". They just used the Cardassian military as long as convenient. When the Cardassian military was no longer helping them, time for them to die.
Don't expect this to be over just because the First Dominion War is over. They'll be back for the Cardassians, and the Romulans too.
I'm aware of that possibility, but just not sure about how to interpret the source material. (In fact I started a thread about that very question about a year ago: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/was-cardassia-doomed-all-along.293175/ )
Considering that all opportunity for overhearing "honest" dialogue between the Founders is lost with the fact that they talk via the Link, I think we need not overtly worry about the source material. Anything coming out of the lips of the Founders is a lie by default, exclusively a way to manipulate the Solids through disgusting Solid means...
And it's actually worse than that, because they lie even within the Link - such as about Gowron for "Apocalypse Rising"!
That there would have been specific designs on Cardassia at any point is debatable. That designs for timepoint T1 would be relevant for timepoint T2 is unlikely, for the reasons given above: the Founders are not beholden to promises, are not short of means to do whatever they wish in the general case, and certainly won't reveal anything of strategic worth at those times when there is a shortage of means. They are also content to play the long game, making them rather fundamentally uninterested in whether their Dominion prospers or collapses, as long as their paramount personal safety is assured.
Timo Saloniemi
And it's actually worse than that, because they lie even within the Link - such as about Gowron for "Apocalypse Rising"!
That there would have been specific designs on Cardassia at any point is debatable. That designs for timepoint T1 would be relevant for timepoint T2 is unlikely, for the reasons given above: the Founders are not beholden to promises, are not short of means to do whatever they wish in the general case, and certainly won't reveal anything of strategic worth at those times when there is a shortage of means. They are also content to play the long game, making them rather fundamentally uninterested in whether their Dominion prospers or collapses, as long as their paramount personal safety is assured.
Timo Saloniemi
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