"Equinox" was 'Da Bomb'!

[exodus]

Part of Ron's grudge probably comes from the fact that he saw a ton of potential in Voyager, and felt TPTB at the time were squandering it. He's not entirely wrong. Story arcs with long term consequences should have been mandatory given Voyager's situation.

They would have lost syndication rights if the show has archs. Syndication is extremely important to any network. UPN being a brand new network couldn't afford to loose that substantial amount of cash.

DS9 wasn't the fan favorite until after the show was completed. UPN couldn't wait until the show was written, said & done for fans to come to love it, they needed results right away.

Ron Moore just wants to be his own boss and not have to answer to anyone above him.

 

[kimc]

I very much enjoyed the Equinox episodes, but thought Janeway was out of control during part 2. When she attempted to kill Lessing she stepped past reasonable actions and into full blown insanity.

Poor Lessing. People who commit genocide are so misunderstood.

Then, she had the gall to remove Chakotay from duty.

Who did she think she was - the captain or something?

Seriouisly, at the end Part 1 I was so peeved at the Equinox crew for leaving Voyager to die at the hands of the aliens that they were responsible for getting riled up I was seriously hoping to see Janeway come back in Part 2 and kick some serious butt. For that reason it all works for me.

 

[exodus]

My question is: Why is Sisko seen as a hero in "For the Uniform" but Janeway is seen as a lunatic in "Equinox"?

Didn't both do duplicitous things to bring people who had abandon their oath to Starfleet too justice? What's the difference?

 

[kimc]

My question is: Why is Sisko seen as a hero in "For the Uniform" but Janeway is seen as a lunatic in "Equinox"?

Didn't both do duplicitous things to bring people who had abandon their oath to Starfleet too justice? What's the difference?

Exactly!

Obvously it can't be a double standard or anything - that's SO 20th century!

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

My question is: Why is Sisko seen as a hero in "For the Uniform" but Janeway is seen as a lunatic in "Equinox"?

Didn't both do duplicitous things to bring people who had abandon their oath to Starfleet too justice? What's the difference?

That's a good question.

I don't mean to sound flippant or cynical, but think of it this way.

When DS9 does such, it's a great examination of human's morality, such drama, etc.

When VGR does it its out of character????

 

[exodus]

My question is: Why is Sisko seen as a hero in "For the Uniform" but Janeway is seen as a lunatic in "Equinox"?

Didn't both do duplicitous things to bring people who had abandon their oath to Starfleet too justice? What's the difference?

Exactly!

Obvously it can't be a double standard or anything - that's SO 20th century!

I think you might be right.

It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers. You know, because woman can't be independant, forward thinkers and still have a bond without having any sexual overtones. Of course on a ship full of men, Janeway & Seven would flip their sexual attraction and pair up with each other.

 

[JRobertson]

It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers.

I gotta go with Mr. Moore here -- the Janeway problem in Equinox II was bad writing. Also bad directing.

Look, I understand the point of the exercise, Janeway starts to look more like Ransom, he moves more toward her, yeah that's fine. Subtle stuff if done right. It just wasn't done right, she almost instantly becomes a Janeway parody, as if this were a reverse universe script. Chop off all their heads, I'll fire anybody who gets in my way. Queen of Hearts. Her aboutface at the end, OK Chakotay you were right about everything, was lacking in credibility too.

Perhaps Patrick Stewart could have carried it off, but not because he is a man. Because he might have the acting chops to overcome a bad script. Ditto for Helen Mirren.

 

[exodus]

It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers.

I gotta go with Mr. Moore here -- the Janeway problem in Equinox II was bad writing. Also bad directing.

Look, I understand the point of the exercise, Janeway starts to look more like Ransom, he moves more toward her, yeah that's fine. Subtle stuff if done right. It just wasn't done right, she almost instantly becomes a Janeway parody, as if this were a reverse universe script. Her aboutface at the end, OK Chakotay you were right about everything, was lacking in credibility too.

Perhaps Patrick Stewart could have carried it off, but not because he is a man. Because he might have the acting chops to overcome a bad script. Ditto for Helen Mirren.

Again, what was the differance in what Sisko did it over Janeway?

Eddington put Sisko's crew, station & lover at risk by his actions, even causing Kassedy to go to jail for it.

Randsom put Janeway's crew, herself & her ship at risk to save his own ass.

Both Captains became obsessed at bringing each man to justice, even going as far as breaking rules themselves to achieve their goals.

Both stories are almost executed the exact same way.

Patrick Stewart didn't pull it off because the same critique of his actions are questioned in "Innsurrection".

Helen Mirren wasn't a good enough actress to turn down or improve "Nation Treasure 2".

 

[JRobertson]

Again, what was the differance in what Sisko did it over Janeway?

Don't know, haven't seen that DS9 episode.

I'm not even arguing with your point that big, authoritative men with deep voices get cut breaks as TV leaders that women with high squeaky voices like Janeway do not. Maybe Sisko acted like a badly written moron, and people love the episode. I don't know.

I do know, while I enjoyed large parts of Equinox, that Janeway's characterization in the second part was second-rate, soap opera stuff. I like Voyager but it had a lot of those moments, which is one reason why it didn't click with the general public as much as some other Trek shows did. People recognize quality, by and large. And Voyager wasn't really high quality, not by the standards of top prime-time shows.

 

[kimc]

It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers.

I gotta go with Mr. Moore here -- the Janeway problem in Equinox II was bad writing. Also bad directing.

Look, I understand the point of the exercise, Janeway starts to look more like Ransom, he moves more toward her, yeah that's fine. Subtle stuff if done right. It just wasn't done right, she almost instantly becomes a Janeway parody, as if this were a reverse universe script. Her aboutface at the end, OK Chakotay you were right about everything, was lacking in credibility too.

Perhaps Patrick Stewart could have carried it off, but not because he is a man. Because he might have the acting chops to overcome a bad script. Ditto for Helen Mirren.

Again, what was the differance in what Sisko did it over Janeway?

Eddington put Sisko's crew, station & lover at risk by his actions, even causing Kassedy to go to jail for it.

Randsom put Janeway's crew, herself & her ship at risk to save his own ass.

Both Captains became obsessed at bringing each man to justice, even going as far as breaking rules themselves to achieve their goals.

Both stories are almost executed the exact same way.

Patrick Stewart didn't pull it off because the same critique of his actions are questioned in "Innsurrection".

Helen Mirren wasn't a good enough actress to turn down or improve "Nation Treasure 2".

Also, Kirk went a bit bonkers in the TOS episode "Obsession" when they encounted the killer gas monster. While you could understand his anger it was also understood that his anger brought him a bit out of character, imo.

I like Voyager but it had a lot of those moments, which is one reason why it didn't click with the general public as much as some other Trek shows did. People recognize quality, by and large. And Voyager wasn't really high quality, not by the standards of top prime-time shows.

Well that's your opinion and I respect that but please don't hold your breath waiting for everyone in here to agree with you.

 

[teya]

It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers. You know, because woman can't be independant, forward thinkers and still have a bond without having any sexual overtones. Of course on a ship full of men, Janeway & Seven would flip their sexual attraction and pair up with each other.

Or the assumption that Janeway and Chakotay must be lovers. Obviously you can't have a man and a woman of roughly the same age just be friends. She *must* have a lover. She's not complete without one.

Also, Kirk went a bit bonkers in the TOS episode "Obsession" when they encounted the killer gas monster. While you could understand his anger it was also understood that his anger brought him a bit out of character, imo.

But is finally going over the edge "out of character"? Everyone has their obsessions, the things that drive them over the edge.

Janeway's was her loyalty to Starfleet and all it represents. Her going over the edge in "Equinox" was completely *in character* to me.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

Well yes, he is doing Battlestar Galactica, which is lightyears ahead of Voyager in every aspect.

Did you watch Season3 yet ? With that Bob Dylan rubbish, it changed from a great scifi series to Bullshitstar Galatcica. If Ron Moore is as great as the bootlickers allege he would have written his own show, the guy has wrote some very good material but it was never original and he is not a truly great writer and never will be. Put him next to Gene Roddenberry, Ridley Scott, Spielberg, or even the Joss Whedon's etc and the guy fails on an epic level. Ron Moore is a bit of a one-trick pony, what he does best is develop somebody else's work by inserting his typical dark/moody look into their show.

 

[kimc]

Or the assumption that Janeway and Chakotay must be lovers. Obviously you can't have a man and a woman of roughly the same age just be friends. She *must* have a lover. She's not complete without one.

You know, that was the same reaction I had when they started dropping the J/C hints in the show. Eventually the idea grew on me though.

 

[Natural]

I dunno, it's not a bad 2 parter, but Janeway kind of annoyed me. She had made some very questionable choices over the course of the series, yet she comes off all high and mighty here, first preaching about principles and then determined to hunt down the evil Capt. Ramsey (?) for breaking his oath. I didn't buy it, and it's inconsistencies such as these which really bugged me with respect to VOY. One episode Janeway is the nutcase; the next she's Mrs. Starfleet.

 

[exodus]

Or the assumption that Janeway and Chakotay must be lovers. Obviously you can't have a man and a woman of roughly the same age just be friends. She *must* have a lover. She's not complete without one.

You know, that was the same reaction I had when they started dropping the J/C hints in the show. Eventually the idea grew on me though.

That's just an example of how women think differently then men.

I don't mean that in a sexist way, so please hear me out.

I saw the relationship play out this way while watching the show.

Even though male/female friendships are rare, it is possable but 9 out of 10 times there has to be some hint to a guy that nothing sexual between the two of them will ever happen. Until then, their will be flirtation.

The moment any woman turns to a man and says: "You're such a good friend." that's the kiss of death in any persuit of a romantic interest. (Trust me ladies, it does work.) That's when the flirtation between the two of them stopped. (Trust me, watch the show again and you'll see it.)

 

[JRobertson]

One episode Janeway is the nutcase; the next she's Mrs. Starfleet.

I was never quite sure what the writers were trying to do with her. Ditto for Archer, I guess you could say I'm not a fan of the later captains.

 

[exodus]

One episode Janeway is the nutcase; the next she's Mrs. Starfleet.

I was never quite sure what the writers were trying to do with her. Ditto for Archer, I guess you could say I'm not a fan of the later captains.

Archer was really all over the place.


....but I get Janeway. In her case, you do what you gotta do with out killing anyone to get home. Ya got make certain sacrifices to do that, right?


That's why I think "Endgame" works and why the Borg had to be in the finale.

 

[Tom Servo]

Well yes, he is doing Battlestar Galactica, which is lightyears ahead of Voyager in every aspect.

Did you watch Season3 yet ? With that Bob Dylan rubbish, it changed from a great scifi series to Bullshitstar Galatcica. If Ron Moore is as great as the bootlickers allege he would have written his own show, the guy has wrote some very good material but it was never original and he is not a truly great writer and never will be. Put him next to Gene Roddenberry, Ridley Scott, Spielberg, or even the Joss Whedon's etc and the guy fails on an epic level. Ron Moore is a bit of a one-trick pony, what he does best is develop somebody else's work by inserting his typical dark/moody look into their show.

Yep, and it was, again, better then anything to come out of Voyager, even with a few bumps along the way. And the introduction of the "All Along the Watchtower" plot line was a very interesting twist on the show, and made the show even better. Of course you diss and harp on BSG in every other forum with a BSG topic, so this shouldn't be any different.

But this topic is about VGR, so I figure this argument is better for another place.

 

[JRobertson]

Archer was really all over the place.

Yeah, the writers were wobbly with Janeway, but off the cliff with Archer.

I'm still deciding if I believed Ramsey's conversion at the end of Equinox. Maybe. That seemed abrupt too, but the actor has a certain solemnity about him that was convincing.

 

[exodus]

Archer was really all over the place.

Yeah, the writers were wobbly with Janeway, but off the cliff with Archer.

I'm still deciding if I believed Ramsey's conversion at the end of Equinox. Maybe. That seemed abrupt too, but the actor has a certain solemnity about him that was convincing.

Ransom.


Yeah, I've always loved him as an actor. He really has a way of getting things across and setting a tone.