"Equinox" was 'Da Bomb'!

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

In all seriousness, my first time viewing this two-parter and it was fantastic. Definitely up there in Trek's best, let alone Voyager.

I appreciated it's darker tone, and examination of morality's fine line.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Overall I liked it but I wouldn't call it great and certainly not in the pantheon of excellent Trek or even Voyager.

I thought that the behavior of Janeway was forced and I didn't buy it.

I agree with what Ron Moore said about it

The things that Janeway does in ‘Equinox’ don’t work, because it’s not about anything. She’s not really grappling with her inner demons. She’s not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she’s made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She’s having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn’t signify anything. It’s kind of emblematic of the show. There is a lot of potential, and there is a lot of surface sizzle going on in a lot of episodes, but to what end? What are we trying to do? What are we trying to touch in the audience? What are we trying to say? What are the things we are trying to explore? Why are we doing this episode? That was my fundamental question. When I would say, ‘What was the point of doing the first part?’ there was never a good answer for that. As a consequence, it was hard to come up with the ending to the show that has no beginning. You just start throwing things around. ‘Two captains on different courses’ at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience? I don’t know how it’s affected her. Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore."

 

[THE_FETT]

Huh. Well, I thought this was a truly great couple of episodes and so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with Moore.

The things that Janeway does in ‘Equinox’ don’t work, because it’s not about anything.

Sure it is. It's about two captains; one which betrays his humanity to achieve his goal, and one which nearly does the same in order to bring him to justice.

She’s not really grappling with her inner demons. She’s not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she’s made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She’s having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn’t signify anything.

I wonder what Moore has to say about The White Whale or The Wrath of Khan?

It’s kind of emblematic of the show. There is a lot of potential, and there is a lot of surface sizzle going on in a lot of episodes, but to what end? What are we trying to do? What are we trying to touch in the audience? What are we trying to say? What are the things we are trying to explore? Why are we doing this episode? That was my fundamental question.

There's an old saying that goes something like, "One must be cautious when slaying dragons, lest one becomes a dragon himself." Could Moore not see this was the point of the episode? Something so painfully obvious?

When I would say, ‘What was the point of doing the first part?’ there was never a good answer for that. As a consequence, it was hard to come up with the ending to the show that has no beginning. You just start throwing things around. ‘Two captains on different courses’ at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience?

Uh. Okay, is he being purposely obtuse? I demand Moore register on this site so I can bitch at him.

I don’t know

No, Ron, apparently you do not.

Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore."

What I really could never figure out, though, is why they called B'Elanna "BLT" because it makes zero sense and is not her initials at all, which would either be "BT" or "BET". I always wondered who was responsible for that?

 

[RoJoHen]

I generally like this episode. But it suffers from a major problem.

We encounter a new ship, and we meet a new crew. This crew gets integrated into Voyager, and then they're never heard from again.

I like Voyager, but it is very good at ignoring events from earlier episodes.

 

[stj]

Overall I liked it but I wouldn't call it great and certainly not in the pantheon of excellent Trek or even Voyager.

I thought that the behavior of Janeway was forced and I didn't buy it.

I agree with what Ron Moore said about it

The things that Janeway does in ‘Equinox’ don’t work, because it’s not about anything. She’s not really grappling with her inner demons. She’s not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she’s made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She’s having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn’t signify anything. It’s kind of emblematic of the show. There is a lot of potential, and there is a lot of surface sizzle going on in a lot of episodes, but to what end? What are we trying to do? What are we trying to touch in the audience? What are we trying to say? What are the things we are trying to explore? Why are we doing this episode? That was my fundamental question. When I would say, ‘What was the point of doing the first part?’ there was never a good answer for that. As a consequence, it was hard to come up with the ending to the show that has no beginning. You just start throwing things around. ‘Two captains on different courses’ at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience? I don’t know how it’s affected her. Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore."

Part one was a cliffhanger where Janeway was apparently killed because of Mulgrew's contract negotiations. Moore's a shitty human being who will deceitfully imply the producers were just idiots.

The notion that Janeway should be grappling with inner demons is stupid. Janeway is angry because Ransom is killing people. Since Trek has habitually had aliens stand in for different cultures, race and philosophies, you should think of the subspace creatures as technologically primitive people (like Indians in Westerns.) Indifference to their fate is callous, to say the least. The real falsehood in the writing is that no one else in the episode reacts, not to the Equinox crew's murders, not even to their personal betrayals of the Voyager crew!

On the other hand, whimpering about Janeway's motivation when the second episode is completely crippled by Ransom's visions of Seven in his dream machine, is unbelievably stupid. It is also obtuse of Moore not to notice that Chakotary's return to normal is completely believable because his actions in this episode were idiotic and unmotivated!

Wasn't this interview the one where Moore blasted the actors on DS9 for daring to point out that the writers were screwing up the characters?

 

[exodus]

Huh. Well, I thought this was a truly great couple of episodes and so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with Moore.

The things that Janeway does in ‘Equinox’ don’t work, because it’s not about anything.

Sure it is. It's about two captains; one which betrays his humanity to achieve his goal, and one which nearly does the same in order to bring him to justice.

She’s not really grappling with her inner demons. She’s not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she’s made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She’s having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn’t signify anything.

I wonder what Moore has to say about The White Whale or The Wrath of Khan?

There's an old saying that goes something like, "One must be cautious when slaying dragons, lest one becomes a dragon himself." Could Moore not see this was the point of the episode? Something so painfully obvious?

Uh. Okay, is he being purposely obtuse? I demand Moore register on this site so I can bitch at him.

I don’t know

No, Ron, apparently you do not.

Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore."

What I really could never figure out, though, is why they called B'Elanna "BLT" because it makes zero sense and is not her initials at all, which would either be "BT" or "BET". I always wondered who was responsible for that?

I agree with you completely.

I myself have gotten to the point where I'm tried of hearing anything Moore has to say. He starting to stike me as a guy that likes talking out his ass because he enjoys the sound of his own voice. I don't think I've ever heard him compliment anything that wasn't his own work.

 

[kimc]

I myself have gotten to the point where I'm tried of hearing anything Moore has to say. He starting to stike me as a guy that likes talking out his ass because he enjoys the sound of his own voice. I don't think I've ever heard him compliment anything that wasn't his own work.

If you listen to his podcasts he does criticize his own work as well and will often explore why something didn't execute as well as his original vision or why the original vision is flawed. He strikes me as a very introspective person with very high standards.

He also praises other works although none come to mind at the moment. He'll say things like "We wanted it to be like --- but they still did it better.", etc.

I imagine following the Trek formula became a bit tiresome after a bit. Still, you can learn as much (if not more) from what is not going right as from what it right so if he had serious issues with the artistry of Trek then at least he had the opportunity to learn from it. You can see the fruits of that in is work on Galactica.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Why does Ron Moore seem to have a grudge against VGR?

 

[kimc]

Why does Ron Moore seem to have a grudge against VGR?

It seems to be against Trek in general due to his experiences working on it and the creative disagreements he had during that time.

 

[Akiraprise]

Part of Ron's grudge probably comes from the fact that he saw a ton of potential in Voyager, and felt TPTB at the time were squandering it. He's not entirely wrong. Story arcs with long term consequences should have been mandatory given Voyager's situation.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Part of Ron's grudge probably comes from the fact that he saw a ton of potential in Voyager, and felt TPTB at the time were squandering it. He's not entirely wrong. Story arcs with long term consequences should have been mandatory given Voyager's situation.

While I enjoyed story arcs and would have liked to see more, not all of it was B and B's fault. UPN stuck their nose in alot of things. Heck, Bragga wanted Year of Hell to be all of S4 but it was nixed by...you guessed it, the superiors. All in all though, Season 4 did have alot of plot threads weaved together, and because of the restrictions, much of VGR had to be episodic.

However from research Moore seemed to blame the writers, when they could only do so much.

I'm not saying B and B didn't have their share of fault in some of VGR's weak points, but it'd be unfair to entirely blame them.

 

[Akiraprise]

I include UPN under my "TPTB" heading.
I know it wasn't entirely the fault of B&B.
In fact I hate all the crap that is often heaped upon them at this board.

 

[chancellorjake]

I very much enjoyed the Equinox episodes, but thought Janeway was out of control during part 2. When she attempted to kill Lessing she stepped past reasonable actions and into full blown insanity. Then, she had the gall to remove Chakotay from duty. If I were Chakotay I would have followed Starfleet procedures and removed her from duty. There are, no doubt, proper Starfleet procedures for removing a CO from command without having to mutiny. Janeway was clearly under stress and not thinking correctly.
Most of the time I loved Janeway, but there were several times when she just lost her grip on sanity and should have been removed from command. Equinox was one of those times. YMMV

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

one of the best Voyager episodes

Why does Ron Moore seem to have a grudge against VGR?

because the guy has an ego greater than the size of Texas, read his 11 page rant about how ST actors didn't understand him. Since Voyager he has gone on to help make notable flops like Roswell & TouchingEvil
while Battlestar - admitedly was a masterpiece during Season1 it has since de-evolved into Bullshitstar Galactica ...now who's "bullshitting the audience" Ronald ?

 

[Michael]

...now who's "bullshitting the audience" Ronald ?

Certainly not Ron Moore.

 

[Wowbagger]

Ironically, when I first saw this episode (last year, in fact), it occurred to me about halfway through that the battle between Voyager and Equinox was also the final battle between Berman-Voyager and RDM-Voyager. Lighthearted short-storytelling against hard, gritty, desperate television.

So I can see why RDM isn't a fan of this two-parter: his team lost.

 

[freak]

This evening I finally got my Season 5 DVD set of Voyager and rewatched both Equinox eps 1 and 2. I had forgotten just how good those episodes were. Even though Janeway's behavior was irrational at times(especially in part 2),I felt that this was a darker side to Janeway that I didn't know existed. I actually liked that as well. The very end of the episode was my favorite part of the whole episode. It was when the Voyager plaque from the ship fell down. And Janeway goes: "would you look at that. All these years, all these battles, this thing has never fallen down before". And then, Chakotay says: "let's put it back up where it belongs". This, IMO, represented Janeway and Chakotay's friendship. They had to put it back together after the Equinox incident. When the plaque fell, so did their friendship. I thought that was rather interesting and it made me think there for a second.

And I also agree about Ron Moore. I'm not sure what his problem is but he has had his head up his behind for a while. I'm not sure I understand why he holds a grudge against Voyager, but he needs to get off his high horse and quick. It's getting old.

 

[startrekwatcher]

And I also agree about Ron Moore. I'm not sure what his problem is but he has had his head up his behind for a while. I'm not sure I understand why he holds a grudge against Voyager, but he needs to get off his high horse and quick. It's getting old.

Just to clarify something. I only quoted the Moore interview regarding Janeway's behavior because I felt he articulated exactly my problem with that aspect of Equinox II.

I do agree with those who feel Moore is a bit full of himself and tends to be hero worshipped too much by some fans. I certainly share some of the issues he had with VOY but at the same time I don't think nBSG is perfect and in recent seasons has demonstrated that it could be prone to the same failings as any show with its inconsistent quality of episodes, its poor plotting at times, the inefficiency the writers display in not having a better grasp on the narrative by having far too much material that ends up not working or getting cut due to time constraints or interesting plot directions that never go anywhere or never pan out as well as an increasing number of once engaging characters becoming so unlikeable that some could care less what happened to them. I think being touted as the best show on tv is a bit much as I can think of a few from years-gone-by and one or two now such as Lost that I think are far better.

And at least with VOY, I do have a desire to rewatch certain episodes whereas BSG beyond season one I have no desire to ever rewatch.

 

[Tom Servo]

one of the best Voyager episodes

Why does Ron Moore seem to have a grudge against VGR?

because the guy has an ego greater than the size of Texas, read his 11 page rant about how ST actors didn't understand him. Since Voyager he has gone on to help make notable flops like Roswell & TouchingEvil
while Battlestar - admitedly was a masterpiece during Season1 it has since de-evolved into Bullshitstar Galactica ...now who's "bullshitting the audience" Ronald ?

Well yes, he is doing Battlestar Galactica, which is lightyears ahead of Voyager in every aspect.

 

[Anwar]

They're totally different shows (and I don't mean in quality terms) and RDM didn't have to worry about UPN breathing down his neck and forcing fundamental changes to his show while it was even still in production.