Equinox... I'm missing something.

[CatAteMyTribble]

What exactly was the problem with Janeway wanting to turn the Equinox crew over to the aliens to be executed? Starfleet policy has always been that officers who violate alien law on alien turf are subject alien punishments, up to and including death for far lesser offenses than deliberate mass murder. And this wasn't Wesley Crusher tripping and falling into a flowerbed; these were adult Starfleet officers who absolutely knew better deliberately murdering large numbers of sentient beings not for their own survival, but merely to make their engines go faster.

In Random Thoughts, Janeway was willing to allow B'Elanna to be lobotomized for thinking a violent thought, in a situation that wasn't at all B'Elanna's fault. (If they'd known about that particular law, I doubt they'd have sent her down. They apparently didn't know about it, and figuring this stuff out beforehand isn't the chief engineer's job.) No one was happy about that, but no one questioned Janeway's fitness for command over it, either.

Sure, Janeway got more emotionally involved than she should have, and confining Chakotay to quarters was probably overkill. But why was her fundamental position so wrong?

 

[SPCTRE]

What exactly was the problem with Janeway wanting to turn the Equinox crew over to the aliens to be executed?

I'd say the problem was that the plot required it to be a problem to create conflict.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They were mostly in neutral space where no law applies.

The space dolphins don't have written down laws or verbally recorded laws or a system of government to enforce those nonexistent laws, that we were made aware of.

There was no proof that the spokesperson for the Space dolphins was their supreme leader, or a hobo squatting in wasteland tenement with insane delusions of grandeur.

 

[Catarina]

I still think it would have been sweet (and coming from a Janeway fan here) to see the Commander snap his fingers and Ayala and that other brig dude come around the corner and capture Janeway by the arms and carry her 5'5" ass outta there kicking her heels hehehehe Time out for the Captain. Chakotay takes over and shines for a change. Just make sure to put his lines at the bottom of a coffee cup so it can be filmed quicker...

 

[stardream]

What exactly was the problem with Janeway wanting to turn the Equinox crew over to the aliens to be executed? Starfleet policy has always been that officers who violate alien law on alien turf are subject alien punishments, up to and including death for far lesser offenses than deliberate mass murder. And this wasn't Wesley Crusher tripping and falling into a flowerbed; these were adult Starfleet officers who absolutely knew better deliberately murdering large numbers of sentient beings not for their own survival, but merely to make their engines go faster.

In Random Thoughts, Janeway was willing to allow B'Elanna to be lobotomized for thinking a violent thought, in a situation that wasn't at all B'Elanna's fault. (If they'd known about that particular law, I doubt they'd have sent her down. They apparently didn't know about it, and figuring this stuff out beforehand isn't the chief engineer's job.) No one was happy about that, but no one questioned Janeway's fitness for command over it, either.

Sure, Janeway got more emotionally involved than she should have, and confining Chakotay to quarters was probably overkill. But why was her fundamental position so wrong?

Stop making me think!

Is there a Prime Directive Issue here? Equinox was 'interfering' with them.

They were mostly in neutral space where no law applies.

The space dolphins don't have written down laws or verbally recorded laws or a system of government to enforce those nonexistent laws, that we were made aware of.

There was no proof that the spokesperson for the Space dolphins was their supreme leader, or a hobo squatting in wasteland tenement with insane delusions of grandeur.

Good points but they did seem to have at least a working knowledge of the concept of justice. They were willing to back off from attacking Voyager when they realized they had nothing to do with the genocide.

I still think it would have been sweet (and coming from a Janeway fan here) to see the Commander snap his fingers and Ayala and that other brig dude come around the corner and capture Janeway by the arms and carry her 5'5" ass outta there kicking her heels hehehehe Time out for the Captain. Chakotay takes over and shines for a change. Just make sure to put his lines at the bottom of a coffee cup so it can be filmed quicker...

Oooh...good story idea.

(from what I understand all of the "Bridge' officer actors had their lines taped to their consoles except for Mulgrew).

 

[CatAteMyTribble]

They were mostly in neutral space where no law applies.

The space dolphins don't have written down laws or verbally recorded laws or a system of government to enforce those nonexistent laws, that we were made aware of.

There was no proof that the spokesperson for the Space dolphins was their supreme leader, or a hobo squatting in wasteland tenement with insane delusions of grandeur.

Was it neutral, though? The summoning device seemed to work by doing something in their space/plane/realm/whatever, and leaving them no choice but to get sucked through the hole into our space. I think if they'd had a choice, they would have just stopped going through it once the figured out they were getting murdered. Regardless, Starfleet officers can't expect to just massacre a bunch of alien civilians in unclaimed space and get off with a reprimand.

Good point about the identity and authority of the aliens, though. It would've been interesting to know more about how the device worked, who ended up going through it, and why. Still, the aliens had been making a concerted, organized effort to destroy the Equinox for months, so I figure they'd collectively decided that's what should be done well before making that demand to Janeway.

 

[Drone]

Well, as stated, it is kind of speculative. Perhaps we can just be reconciled that those three brigands who spent the last two years getting all grimy from their labors, will be handed over to Starfleet to get their just rewards and leave it at that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Claiming space beyond your own solarsystem requires garrisoning, colonizing and assimilating exoplanets, building starbases, patrolling with starships, and monitoring the entirety of your borders with detection grids and more starbases and maybe parsecs worth of concentrated minefields.

 

[hux]

I still think it would have been sweet (and coming from a Janeway fan here) to see the Commander snap his fingers and Ayala and that other brig dude come around the corner and capture Janeway by the arms and carry her 5'5" ass outta there kicking her heels hehehehe Time out for the Captain. Chakotay takes over and shines for a change. Just make sure to put his lines at the bottom of a coffee cup so it can be filmed quicker...

Chuckles made it clear in Scorpion that he wasn't interested in standing up to Kathy. He'd make some speech (preferably with a fable or some spiritual gibberish in it) and then go stand in a corner and stare at the wall whilst dribbling until the next episode.

"I won't let you cross that line again."

My arse.

 

[Drone]

At least it was a well known fable, or some variant thereof, and not something he just pulled out of his ass. Keep in mind that it did also supply the code word for their later neutralizing of Seven on the bridge, so it did serve some purpose. I guess.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Janeway's decision not to turn the Equinox crew over to the aliens was more mercy than law. But it was also strategic, as the aliens couldn't necessarily tell the difference between Equinox and Voyager.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I have posted before that I love the episode 'Equinox' because to me, Janeway is actually in the right and nobody [the writers included] seem to know what to do with that fact. The scene with Chakotay outside of the cargo bay is fantastic.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did any of you think that she was so honourable that it was never a lie, that she was going to feed people to space dolphins?

She didn't just fret over keeping her word for three days, and then suddenly decide that murder is bad.

Janeway is a liar.

 

[hux]

The scene with Chakotay outside of the cargo bay is fantastic.

That scene is literally the moment I went from not having faith in Janeway (based on the events of Scorpion) to actively wanting to slap her. The petulant look she gives Chakotay after he tells her she's gone too far is beyond awful.

When I picture Kirk, Picard, Sisko or Archer giving the same look to their second in command, I just cringe. It wouldn't happen. Disagree with their second in command? Sure but give a look of silent petulant contempt then walk off like she's just been told off by teacher?... no. She has completely lost her shit... again.

Terrible.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Season One (still wanna be a terrorist, why can't I be a terrorist) Kira (Shit, I forgot that he was a demigod) gave Sisko some stern looks.

Kirk and McCoy went out of their way to innocently make Spock's life a living Hell.

T'Pol in the pilot, Brokenbow, disagreed with the Captain, saw him in a coma and still followed his orders.

 

[CatAteMyTribble]

Did any of you think that she was so honourable that it was never a lie, that she was going to feed people to space dolphins?

She didn't just fret over keeping her word for three days, and then suddenly decide that murder is bad.

Janeway is a liar.

The way I remember it, she intended to do exactly that up until the moment Ransom changed his mind and voluntarily took responsibility for his actions. The mutiny conveniently removed the 'just following orders' defense for those who sided with the first officer, all of whom ended up dead, anyway. The aliens didn't seem too upset that they'd missed a few, because they'd gotten everyone worth getting. If they had been, she might well have turned over the survivors. (And, IMHO, she should have. The aliens had every right to execute them, and preventing them from doing so wasn't worth jeopardizing her crew's safety.)

 

[Leviathan]

Bah! Kirk would have tossed the Equinox to the aliens then seduced their queen...classic Starfleet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did any of you think that she was so honourable that it was never a lie, that she was going to feed people to space dolphins?

She didn't just fret over keeping her word for three days, and then suddenly decide that murder is bad.

Janeway is a liar.

The way I remember it, she intended to do exactly that up until the moment Ransom changed his mind and voluntarily took responsibility for his actions. The mutiny conveniently removed the 'just following orders' defense for those who sided with the first officer, all of whom ended up dead, anyway. The aliens didn't seem too upset that they'd missed a few, because they'd gotten everyone worth getting. If they had been, she might well have turned over the survivors. (And, IMHO, she should have. The aliens had every right to execute them, and preventing them from doing so wasn't worth jeopardizing her crew's safety.)

But by your read, Janeway is an idiot.

Now about the aliens rights to indiscriminately murder at whim... They are worse than a stone age culture. They will never invent technology because their biology is so convenient there is no need to invent fire or dry-cleaning because they are super content and satisfied to exist as savages, and sometimes get off on being regarded as gods by their neighbours.

When the space dolphins rammed Voyager's shields constantly for 40(?) hours until the shields failed, do you really think Dolphins that can be felled by a phaser blast from a hand weapon would survive that? That'd be millions maybe tens of millions of Dolphins who were convinced by their glorious leader that their sacrifice was necessary to break through Voyager's shields to stop Equinox from harvesting another 60 dolphins, and punish them for killing 30 dolphins.

Space Dolphins have a mean IQ of 40? They probably have memories comparable to goldfishes. In a week, without any reminders, momento style, they'd have forgotten all about Equinox.

It doesn't matter if Janeway was lying or telling the truth, only an idiot would believe that she would go through with feeding her own kind to alien monsters.

So if the Dolphins were as smart as humans, and Janeway was telling the truth (because of her latest mental breakdown) they wouldn't have believed her promise to kill 20 star fleet officers, and executed Janeway instead for lying.

It was just irrational that the Equinox crew no matter how their numbers dwindled, still thought their less than 10 (and counting) lives were more valuable than the 150 people on Voyager.

 

[hux]

I never thought Janeway would actually give any humans to the them but I don't doubt she meant it when she said it. That's the problem with Janeway; she's a reactionary. Inexperienced and out of her depth.

That never bothered me too much; it was the fact that she just lost it and didn't involve her officers in the process for discussing how to deal with the situation. Confines Chakotay to quarters then threatens to do the same to Tuvok. Just utterly loses her fucking marbles.

I still don't understand what the writers were trying to say. Did they think this lunacy made her look badass or something?

 

[stardream]

I still don't understand what the writers were trying to say. Did they think this lunacy made her look badass or something?

A question for the ages.