Maybe so.
Equinox episode on this week, most criticized in Voyager
- Thread starter DarthTom
- Start date
Maybe so.
Bzzt, oh im sorry, but that answer is just insane! Thanks for playing, heres a copy of the home edition.
In other words, BSG could never "show how" to do any trek.
Equinox was one of my favorite Voyager, and overall Trek 2 parters. I think ida been too suicidal to watch Trek if it had been anything like depressing BSG.
You said that if Janeway wasn't a good captain, her crew would be dead. My point is that Janeway didn't have to be a good captain for that; she just had to have the writers on her side.
I understood the point of the episode, thanks. It wasn't exactly subtle.
In a thoroughly cliched fashion.
It made her look like a petty tyrant. You tell me the episode Kirk did that and I'll award you an Internet cookie.
I understood all of that. (Once again, the episode wasn't even slightly subtle.) That doesn't mean I have to like what I saw.
You just whacked the smithereeens out of a straw man, at least as far as answering me is concerned. I never said Janeway was a bad captain. In fact, while she's made some decisions I question, I don't really think she is a bad captain. I generally think she did about as well as a captain could in her situation. I just don't think this episode painted her in a very good light.
As for Sisko -- I don't like Sisko and I haven't ever since the Eddington arc on DS9. I don't remember the Bernie Casey/Cal Hudson eps very well, but I do remember that all my sympathies were with Cal Hudson. As for what he did to capture Eddington, that was completely reprehensible, and I think it speaks poorly of Starfleet that he wasn't tried as a war criminal. (I take some consolation in the fact that Eddington totally outfoxed him in "Blaze of Glory.") That he could laugh and joke about it afterward --!
I do have to say I'm inclined to let him off the hook for the incident with Senator Veenak, though. At the time, that murder and the attendant deception (and the fact that the combination brought the Romulans into the Dominion War on the Federation side) may have saved the lives of millions of people, and the Federation from a defeat that would have resulted in widespread slavery. If I were him, I'd do it again, too.
Brennyren
Just goes to show you that reactions differ. I thought the episode was very bad. I too thought that Ransom's obsession with Seven (appearing in his day dreamer gizmo no less) leading to his suddenly seeing the light of virtue and niceness was downright silly.
I thought the idea that the Equinox was simultaneously a floating wreck and able to escape Voyager was yet another example of a self-contradictory story premise. One half you might could swallow, but both? Naw.
By the way, the idea that murdering flying aliens would somehow make the ship fly faster was another of those loony Voyager premises, like aging backwards or reproducing by reviving corpses floating in space, that just don't bear thinking about.
No one except Janeway getting upset that the Equinox crew was murdering aliens is just false characterization. I don't understand why no one notices how callous Chakotay and Tuvok are about this. They'd have let Equinox off scott free. That's the outrage.
I thought the idea that the Equinox was simultaneously a floating wreck and able to escape Voyager was yet another example of a self-contradictory story premise. One half you might could swallow, but both? Naw.
By the way, the idea that murdering flying aliens would somehow make the ship fly faster was another of those loony Voyager premises, like aging backwards or reproducing by reviving corpses floating in space, that just don't bear thinking about.
No one except Janeway getting upset that the Equinox crew was murdering aliens is just false characterization. I don't understand why no one notices how callous Chakotay and Tuvok are about this. They'd have let Equinox off scott free. That's the outrage.
You make excellent points in terms of plot holes. Save the Tuvok/Chakotay observation. In real life don't forget we have real people in the military hierarchy willing to give the people who tortured a free pass. Overall: I guess I'm able to overlook them because of the messages involved and the more life like portrayal of a real ship's captain.
Just curious on the other series, you could find as many if not more plot holes .... and in ST Enterprise's case, they even break canon in doing so.
I prefer the second part over the first. I thought it had better pacing and was overall just more exciting. Plus part one had a very boring and uninspired cliffhanger.
"Equinox" shows us a captain at her limits--this is not Janeway as she usually is--warm, compassionate, brave--but Janeway absolutely on the edge. That's what is so compelling about the episodes. And the last moments of Part II demonstrate that Janeway more than realizes how questionable her actions were. She is never pushed to such limits on the series again (until Endgame, but as Ive argued before Adm Janeway is not *our* Janeway).
BSG's "Pegasus" is certainly not preferable to "Equinox." BSG has none of the love for its characters, just about all of whom are morally dubious, that VOY has. BSG's one female captain is a martinet, a shrew, and a murderous psychopath--one gets the sense she was always this way, and the war just gave these tendencies vent. "Equinox" is a pointedly dark episode that shows you a situation in which even a moral, loving person like Janeway can go over the edge, much as Picard does in First Contact; BSG has none of this complexity, though Im sure to many it seems the infinitely smarter show.
BSG's "Pegasus" is certainly not preferable to "Equinox." BSG has none of the love for its characters, just about all of whom are morally dubious, that VOY has. BSG's one female captain is a martinet, a shrew, and a murderous psychopath--one gets the sense she was always this way, and the war just gave these tendencies vent. "Equinox" is a pointedly dark episode that shows you a situation in which even a moral, loving person like Janeway can go over the edge, much as Picard does in First Contact; BSG has none of this complexity, though Im sure to many it seems the infinitely smarter show.
I'd also like to add to this, Voyager was under attack by the aliens when the Equinox got away. That's a legitmate excuse right there.
As far as using aliens to fly faster seeming loony, it is after all sci-fi. If you can except impossable technology like a transporter, why are aliens being used as fuel loony? Ever heard of "fossel fuel"?
After re-watching the show last night I was reminded of the fact that it wasn't implausible either for a damaged Equinox to escape Voyager. Firstly, they had replaced the Dr. with the other Dr. without his ethical subroutines and he was aiding them. Secondly, as soon as the Equinox escaped the aliens attacked Voyager damaging her as well. Thirdly, the Equinox captain as noted in the show likes to 'run and hide' which he did. Finally, Voyager does re-take the Equinox easily once they find her.
So, in real life the plausibility of a superiorly armed vessel which all of those variables going against it, would make sense that they would be able to escape.
BTW, the character of Noah Lansing on the show was hot as hell.
overall I liked these episodes but there were some barmy moments like the voyagers writers room liked to through out,
wasnt there a line about Janeway should outrank Ransom for having a better ship? nothing about experience or how long one has been captain.
you cant really blame these episodes for the fact the characters were never used again but It would have been better to make that crew or atleast one of them a recurring villain.
oh and it had that really stupid line about "hey this planet looks just like that park on earth... you know the one near paramount studios where they'd do location shoots!"
always bugged me.
wasnt there a line about Janeway should outrank Ransom for having a better ship? nothing about experience or how long one has been captain.
you cant really blame these episodes for the fact the characters were never used again but It would have been better to make that crew or atleast one of them a recurring villain.
oh and it had that really stupid line about "hey this planet looks just like that park on earth... you know the one near paramount studios where they'd do location shoots!"
always bugged me.
Yes, that's part of what makes it M-Class. If the plant life grew up in or lived in a different environment (thereby making them some other color or configuration), then it'd not be M-class.
They'd be flowers then... since Earth does have orange vegetation. However photosynthesis that causes the green in most vegetation is a product of the class-g sun (that is also required of an M-class planet), and the vegetation itself is what makes our atmosphere so oxygen rich. A sun that creates orange vegetation, wouldn't create flowers that give off oxygen, it'd be some other type of gas, therefore not creating an m-class atmosphere.
The news media like to make a big deal when a photon is teleported by recreating its quantum state (which is a sloppy way of putting it, but close enough for our purposes I think.) The photon is not only microscopic but massless. But you can still call it teleportation and they do. If macroscopic objects can be said to have a quantum state and if there was some incredible advances in technology, perhaps they too could be "teleported."
It's really all very far-fetched, not just in practical terms. The theoretical justification is rather vague too. But there is some real science with fiction added.
Fossil fuels release the potential energy of the electrons as atoms are rearranged in combustion reactions. For human purposes this is quite significant. But nuclear reactions release some of the binding energy of the nucleus (hence the name.) The mass deficit of the fission products is rather small. But due to the c squared in Einstein's famous equation, a tiny mass deficit releases huge amounts of energy. Thus, an atomic bomb is vastly more powerful than an equivalent weight of fossil fuel, of any type.
Matter/antimatter reactions convert not just a relatively tiny amount of the binding energy but all of the matter in the atoms. That c squared makes the energy released vastly more powerful than nuclear reactions. Since star travel must take literally astronomical amounts of energy, Star Trek tossing off references to antimatter was a gratifying aid to willing suspension of disbelief.
The notion that a fossil fuel can add to the energy blatantly contradicts science fact. The transporter may make up some fictional science but the alien go juice makes up nonsense. If you have a rock to big for an elephant to move, you don't claim that harnessing up an ant in tandem will make a noticeable difference.
Still, considering that the Equinox crew were murdering people, Janeway's reactions were not that extreme. Chakotay's and Tuvok's nonreactions to murder, indeed, their insistence on protecting murderers is forced mischarcterization in the service of a plot. It also seems pretty repulsive in purely human terms.
^^Man talk to much, make Hulk head hurt.
Must crush.
Seriously, it just sounds too me that if you can explain all that(..and I'm glad you can)you're putting to much science into it and not enough fiction. I don't think anybody ever intended for Star Trek or it's audience to delve that deep into how everything works.
Must crush.
Seriously, it just sounds too me that if you can explain all that(..and I'm glad you can)you're putting to much science into it and not enough fiction. I don't think anybody ever intended for Star Trek or it's audience to delve that deep into how everything works.
It happens in real life. So not all that unplausible at all:
Abu Ghraib Prison and some of our troops throwing a blind eye to torture and murder
