Equinox episode on this week, most criticized in Voyager

[DarthTom]

The Equinox Part I and II are on Spike this week and I've found that short of Threshold, it tends to get a lot of criticism by Trek fans, especially non Voyager fans.

Personally, I found the Equinox two parter to be some of the best of Trek for a number of reasons:

*It's the most realistic look at how tensions between captains can escalate into a misunderstanding.

*It's a look at how people [humans] will violate their own principles to achieve an objective

*It shows that even SF captains can be fatally flawed but still be good captains.

I could go on.

One of the biggest criticisms I've found of this story arc is that Janeway threatens to murder an uncooperative crew mate which is very 'un-Star fleet' compared to how other captains are portrayed on the other series.

Actually, I think this again shows how pushed to the brink humans are humans. I often compare her threat of murder to how sometimes Patton acted on the battle field who was undeniably a good general but flawed as well.

Thoughts?

 

[Dr. Chandra]

I can agree with you on most of this. I thought Equinox was very good and well-acted. I was in the camp, however, that disapproved of Janeway's threatening a crewman. The pressure of the situation could be used as an excuse, but starship captains are supposed to made of sterner stuff.

 

[exodus]

^^I think just Picard is.

Picard is the best of the best humanity has to offer, which is why he's captain of the flagship for the Federation.

Archer, Kirk, Sisko & Janeway were people more like you and I, where they had some prejudices and faults.

Archer left aliens stranded by stealing their warpcore.

Kirk hated and sought revenge upon Klingons.

Sisko was an accessory and covered up a murder.

Janeway hunted down Ransom & the Equinox no differently than what Sisko did to Michael Eddington.

 

[DarthTom]

Dr. Chandra said:
The pressure of the situation could be used as an excuse, but starship captains are supposed to made of sterner stuff.

Again, if you look at some historical real Generals, Admirals and Captains her behavior isn't all that abborent.

Douglas MacArthur was known as an arrogant prick but his troops loved him. Patton, even slapped a man who was in the hospital suffering from shell shock. And Admiral Halsey during took some very dangerous and some say reckless chances in fleet maneuvers in the pacific, risking many people's lives and taking many in the process.

The point is to me is that real captains, admirals, generals and in general leaders are often flawed individuals.

And one of my long running criticisms of Picard is that they tried to portrays him as a nearly perfect commander, almost without flaws and it comes off as not plausible.

Whereas with Janeway she makes a lot of arrogant, self righteous, and in this episode's case even out right criminal decisions - mistakes that anyone under enormous stress might and actually have in real life.

 

[Clym]

BSG's 'Pegasus' arc shows how the 'Equinox' story should have been handled....

 

[DarthTom]

Clym said:
BSG's 'Pegasus' arc shows how the 'Equinox' story should have been handled....

Since I've never seen that arc can you summarize how it was handled on BSG and what would make it better please?

 

[exodus]

Clym said:
BSG's 'Pegasus' arc shows how the 'Equinox' story should have been handled....

Dude, you have the right to post where you feel but if you hate Voy. so much and like BSG so much better, why do you keep posting here if you're just going to put it down?

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
Dude, you have the right to post where you feel but if you hate Voy. so much and like BSG so much better, why do you keep posting here if you're just going to put it down?

I'm honestly curious how BSG handled it better. A lot of Trek fans though you have to admit are very critical of the Ezuinox story arc themselves. And I don't understand the criticism because IMHO Trek gets at it's best when they take off the goodie two shoes federation appraoch.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
Dude, you have the right to post where you feel but if you hate Voy. so much and like BSG so much better, why do you keep posting here if you're just going to put it down?

I'm honestly curious how BSG handled it better. A lot of Trek fans though you have to admit are very critical of the Ezuinox story arc themselves. And I don't understand the criticism because IMHO Trek gets at it's best when they take off the goodie two shoes federation appraoch.

Honestly, I have never heard any complaints about the ep.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised, some people would complain about the sky being blue if they could.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
Then again I shouldn't be surprised, some people would complain about the sky being blue if they could.

Actually it isn't the episode itself but they use it as proof that Janeway was a bad captain - whereas I think it makes her a more real and believable captain.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
Then again I shouldn't be surprised, some people would complain about the sky being blue if they could.

Actually it isn't the episode itself but they use it as proof that Janeway was a bad captain - whereas I think it makes her a more real and believable captain.

I agree.

If she were a bad captain, they'd all be dead.

 

[propita]

There was a fanfic somewhere, that had Janeway's threatening Lessing as a defense of Seven--maternal defense. And that Lessing realized just how much danger he had been in--mama lions don't like their cubs messed with.

 

[Orac Zen]

DarthTom said:

Clym said:
BSG's 'Pegasus' arc shows how the 'Equinox' story should have been handled....

Since I've never seen that arc can you summarize how it was handled on BSG and what would make it better please?

Based on recent events in the Who forum and here, you may not get that answer.

I'm not a great fan of "Equinox" (I find myself wanting to fire Ransom out the nearest airlock without an EVA suit, which probably means the episode is doing its job) but I agree that it cops a lot of undeserved flak. People, when pushed far enough, may do things they'd never consider themselves capable of in "normal" circumstances. That may not necessarily justify Janeway's actions, but it certainly helps explain them.

 

[DarKush]

I'm not the biggest VOY fan by far, but "Equinox Pt. 1" is one of a handful of VOY eps that has major rewatchability for me. I didn't get into Pt. 2 as much but I really liked the Equinox crew. They felt more 'real' to me than even the VOY crew. I liked the dude Burke as well, and his scenes with Torres, and the evil Doctor.

Overall, I thought the pacing, acting, tension were for the most part for both episodes. Ransom was a good nemesis for Janeway. I wished they could've found a way to keep him around a little while.

Of course, the two-parter wasn't perfect. I didn't get Ransom's obssession with Seven. Why does everyone have be interested in her? Yeah, she's mega-hot, but that doesn't mean everyone has to dig her. I also didn't care for the Slimer type aliens. I had heard they were floating around using Species 8472 but decided not to. Now, that would've been truly awesome. Also, I think it would've been sweet if the Equinox crew was wearing TNG style uniforms.

 

[exodus]

^^Because Seven is like the R2-D2 of the Trek universe.

Being Borg makes you near perfect: A.K.A-I can do almost everything.

What's not to like?

 

[mr.peany]

I loved part II. The opening teaser was awesome, the shot of the Equinox's nacelle exploding was cool and it featured one of Voyagers better exploding console scenes. Whats not to love?

 

[Brennyren]

exodus said:
If she were a bad captain, they'd all be dead.

Y'know, I'm not saying Janeway is a bad captain, but the fact that the crew didn't end up dead doesn't do anything at all to prove that she isn't. It's easy to succeed when you have scriptwriters on your side. She could give the most ludicrous orders imaginable -- she could command Paris to fly the ship in figure-eights while the bridge crew danced the conga through the corridors dressed in tropical shirts and Carmen Miranda hats -- and if the writers (or the higher-ups) decreed that that was the exact strategy needed to confound the Borg, well, then it would be. The writers would write that it succeeded, and so it would. That wouldn't make Janeway a genius; it would just mean that the people in charge decided to let plausibility take a holiday.

I'm surprised so many people are willing to let Janeway off the hook for torturing a fellow Starfleet officer and risking killing him. Yes, I've heard the argument that she was just trying to scare him, but considering that she didn't actually have any control over what the baby space seals did, and that she was damned angry when Chakotay tried to protect Lessing, I'm not buying it.

The other thing that disturbed me about this episode was the high-handed way she treated Chakotay, by relieving him of duty when he said he wouldn't stand by quietly while she continued on this path. Lady, he's your XO -- it's his job to make sure you actually think about what you're doing. Later, when Tuvok expressed objections not unlike Chakotay's, she bullied him into acquiescence by saying she'd already relieved one officer of duty -- a clear threat.

I'm sorry, but this episode did not do Janeway any favors. I didn't think of her as being "more human"; I thought of her as being someone I was glad I didn't have to serve under.

Brennyren

 

[Caprica_Six]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
Dude, you have the right to post where you feel but if you hate Voy. so much and like BSG so much better, why do you keep posting here if you're just going to put it down?

I'm honestly curious how BSG handled it better. A lot of Trek fans though you have to admit are very critical of the Ezuinox story arc themselves. And I don't understand the criticism because IMHO Trek gets at it's best when they take off the goodie two shoes federation appraoch.

I'd tell you but the folks around here are a might bit sensitive about having negative things to say about Voyager so I'd rather not

Ask the BSG forum.

 

[exodus]

Brennyren said:

exodus said:
If she were a bad captain, they'd all be dead.

Y'know, I'm not saying Janeway is a bad captain, but the fact that the crew didn't end up dead doesn't do anything at all to prove that she isn't. It's easy to succeed when you have scriptwriters on your side. She could give the most ludicrous orders imaginable -- she could command Paris to fly the ship in figure-eights while the bridge crew danced the conga through the corridors dressed in tropical shirts and Carmen Miranda hats -- and if the writers (or the higher-ups) decreed that that was the exact strategy needed to confound the Borg, well, then it would be. The writers would write that it succeeded, and so it would. That wouldn't make Janeway a genius; it would just mean that the people in charge decided to let plausibility take a holiday.

I'm surprised so many people are willing to let Janeway off the hook for torturing a fellow Starfleet officer and risking killing him. Yes, I've heard the argument that she was just trying to scare him, but considering that she didn't actually have any control over what the baby space seals did, and that she was damned angry when Chakotay tried to protect Lessing, I'm not buying it.

The other thing that disturbed me about this episode was the high-handed way she treated Chakotay, by relieving him of duty when he said he wouldn't stand by quietly while she continued on this path. Lady, he's your XO -- it's his job to make sure you actually think about what you're doing. Later, when Tuvok expressed objections not unlike Chakotay's, she bullied him into acquiescence by saying she'd already relieved one officer of duty -- a clear threat.

I'm sorry, but this episode did not do Janeway any favors. I didn't think of her as being "more human"; I thought of her as being someone I was glad I didn't have to serve under.

Brennyren

I'm not sure what your exact point about the writers is, however the point of the ep. was about obsession and how when a crew doesn't work togther despite their differences things fall apart. The whole metaphor with Voyager plaque falling down and her and Chakotay rehanging it even stated that point. The point of releaving Chakotay & threatening Tuvok(Her two closest friends)cemented the fact she was obsessed.

Janeway seeking revenge upon Ransom, was showing how a captain equal to him could wander down the same path. As the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Janeway had the right idea but her judgement was sending her down the wrong path.

However, I don't understand why Janeway is getting flack for this while Sisko did it 3x. Once with Bernie Casey, again with Eddington and a 3rd time with Senator Veenak. Sisko poisoned a planet and covered up a murder. Janeway killed no one and yet she's seen as a bad captain.

 

[DarthTom]

Brennyren said:
I'm sorry, but this episode did not do Janeway any favors. I didn't think of her as being "more human"; I thought of her as being someone I was glad I didn't have to serve under.

Brennyren

That's the point, it makes her believable. MacArthur in real life directly defied an order from the President of the United States and Patton slapped a solider suffering from shell shock. Both of these real life commanders are considered brilliant - yet they are fallible.

One of the biggest criticisms I have with Trek is the infallibility of SF captains. It's nonsense to believe otherwise and it makes them implausible characters IMHO.