Episode of the Week : The Savage Curtain

[3D ChessMaster]

Watched The Savage Curtain today on CBS Action, and it struck me near the end they are raising the topic whether it is justified for more advanced beings to experiment on less intelligent beings. Something that is still a hotly disputed issue between those for/against animal experiments.

Kirk looks very taken aback after he has asked why the lava aliens
feel they have the right to have carried the experiment of good vs evil, and the alien replies along the lines of 'By the same right that brought you here'

 

[johnnybear]

To them evil and good were concepts that they didn't understand! It's a question that no one can really answer! Are we sure that the creature did look like that and wasn't just using the minerals around him in which to encase his intellect?
JB

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well I'd read and have been speaking with a few LIS fans and they all talk about a glow around the ship when it was travelling in space during the third season! Now that would put me well off!
JB

Well, I just spot checked the first four episodes of the third season, which have a lot of space travel shots of the Jupiter 2. Not glow. I have no idea what these folks are complaining about, but it's not on my discs at all.

 

[johnnybear]

Hmmm! Maybe it was a fault on selected editions then perhaps?
JB

 

[2takesfrakes]

This episode is so over-the-top, that it's hard not to love it, for that very reason. And the Alien looks COOL! When Kahless starts doing his impersonations, I knew I was into something good. And the fact that he would take orders from Colonel Green just made him and even greater curiosity. I just suppose that the aliens starring as Kahless didn't research his character thoroughly enough. It only adds to the whacked-outness of the episode and makes it that much more fun to watch. I mean Kahless could do ANYBODY! He should've gone into standup. I felt bad for the 2nd bananas in the evil troupe, because it would've been nice to have them get more directly involved, rather than seeing Genghis Khan solely as somebody else's henchman. But, again, the thought that he'd be so subservient to another's orders - even to their whims - made him all the more interesting, in that sense. From the moment that Abe Lincoln solidifies from an eerie glow, in Outer Space, on Captain Kirk's viewscreen, onwards ... my jaw continues to drop! The "Anything Goes" episodes are always the best kind ...

 

[UnknownSample]

There's something to be said for that, for just going for broke, and shamelessly letting wackiness prevail. Better that than a run -of-the-mill Next Gen that squeaks by on Picard's dignified reserve, etc, and on the smoothness of the production rather than challenging ideas.

 

[johnnybear]

Kahless kow-towing to Green didn't seem right from what we know of The Klingons we saw in TOS or the fact that Genghis Khan was little more than a henchman! This sort of proves that they were Excalbian creatures in human forms rather than the actual people or even resurrected versions as Lincoln tried to get Kirk to accept!
JB

 

[Timo]

"Excalbian creatures" - or Kirk's misconceptions of how the characters should be?

It's not as if Kirk would hold Genghis Khan in high esteem by default, I think. He's a 23rd century American, not a 20th century Mongolian. And what he knows of Klingons, judging by the TOS episodes, is scheming and betrayal, scheming and betrayal, and "his" Kahless fits that picture nicely enough.

It's definitely "his" Lincoln. Is it Spock's Surak, though? I doubt Kirk would know much about this guy ("Who?"), certainly not enough to create a fake in whom Spock can discern no outright errors to point out, merely the implicitly understood fakeness.

If we accept the Excalbians taking imagery from the minds of folks other than Kirk, we could just as well assume they are recycling characters taken from the minds of previous crews, of course.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

We don't like the Excalbians' methods, but they do seem pretty willing to sacrifice themselves in the pursuit of knowledge, so they get some props.

To them evil and good were concepts that they didn't understand! It's a question that no one can really answer! Are we sure that the creature did look like that and wasn't just using the minerals around him in which to encase his intellect?
JB

Spock described Lincoln just before the transporter locked on to Lincoln as "for a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. So I think we can assume this is their true form. Although I suppose they could be as you suggest, minds resonating within and conducted along crystals making up most of the planet, and creating those rock forms with their fairly sophisticated matter transformation powers (I mean, can the Federation turn rocks with foreclaws into Surak?) whenever they want to get mobile.

 

[Timo]

There's plenty of ambiguity there: in the rocky host's introductory speech, "the planet Excalbia" is also called "that planet", suggesting it's a location different from the arena on which the fights take place. OTOH, the arena is also called "our planet", but probably due to simple possession rather than in order to suggest it's their world of origin.

Would aliens to the rocky arena world natively appear like rock creatures aptly indigenous'ish to that world? Or are the rock creatures as much a creation and a possession as the arena is?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

We don't like the Excalbians' methods, but they do seem pretty willing to sacrifice themselves in the pursuit of knowledge, so they get some props.



Spock described Lincoln just before the transporter locked on to Lincoln as "for a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. So I think we can assume this is their true form. Although I suppose they could be as you suggest, minds resonating within and conducted along crystals making up most of the planet, and creating those rock forms with their fairly sophisticated matter transformation powers (I mean, can the Federation turn rocks with foreclaws into Surak?) whenever they want to get mobile.

Yeah I forgot about Spock's comments of living rock with claws! Then I'd say that was their natural form then, Vandervecken!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

There's plenty of ambiguity there: in the rocky host's introductory speech, "the planet Excalbia" is also called "that planet", suggesting it's a location different from the arena on which the fights take place. OTOH, the arena is also called "our planet", but probably due to simple possession rather than in order to suggest it's their world of origin.

Would aliens to the rocky arena world natively appear like rock creatures aptly indigenous'ish to that world? Or are the rock creatures as much a creation and a possession as the arena is?

Timo Saloniemi

The Excalbians had prepared an area of the planet for their two guests to come down to! They obviously knew how to create oxygen and the other gasses needed to sustain human life on their world but not what drives them!
JB

 

[BJ Wagner]

Watched this one today on Blu-ray. Like so many episodes in season 3, it has some decent themes, but was executed better in earlier episodes. I do always enjoy the scene with Kirk, Uhura and Lincoln.

 

[Spock's Barber]

I give it a 5. Neither great nor horrible. I like the battle between good and evil. Abraham Lincoln though....c'mon, man. Why not Jim Bowie or Davy Crockett instead?

 

[3D ChessMaster]

We don't like the Excalbians' methods, but they do seem pretty willing to sacrifice themselves in the pursuit of knowledge, so they get some props.



Spock described Lincoln just before the transporter locked on to Lincoln as "for a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. So I think we can assume this is their true form. Although I suppose they could be as you suggest, minds resonating within and conducted along crystals making up most of the planet, and creating those rock forms with their fairly sophisticated matter transformation powers (I mean, can the Federation turn rocks with foreclaws into Surak?) whenever they want to get mobile.

Thinking about it that way sheds new light on the Excalibans.
If we interpret it as the Excalibans become versions of Lincoln and Surak and actually get killed ( Does Col. Green also fall on His own knife?) . But that is not the feel to me of the rest of this episode.

Presumably the only 2 of the 8 combatants who are actually who they appear to be are Kirk and Spock the other 6 (2 good 4 evil) are being played by Excalibans.
So are the other 6 just playing roles and the Excalibans playing Lincoln and Surak just playing dead to test Kirk and Spock.

But, Kirk is told that the evil 4 were offered power as a motivation which might imply that some of the evil 4 were actually who they appeared to be? That would have required time travel though?

My first impression on seeing this episode was that only Kirk, Spock, Green and Kahless were real with something at stake and the other 4 were images projected or acted by the Excalibans and what happened to them was just an image.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

There's plenty of ambiguity there: in the rocky host's introductory speech, "the planet Excalbia" is also called "that planet", suggesting it's a location different from the arena on which the fights take place. OTOH, the arena is also called "our planet", but probably due to simple possession rather than in order to suggest it's their world of origin.

Would aliens to the rocky arena world natively appear like rock creatures aptly indigenous'ish to that world? Or are the rock creatures as much a creation and a possession as the arena is?

Timo Saloniemi

I wouldn't read too much into the phrase "that planet "; I think it's just an appositive phrase for "the planet just named." Remember the other scene when Yarnek says: "You find my body heat distressing, Captain? You forget the nature of this planet."

Thinking about it that way sheds new light on the Excalibans.
If we interpret it as the Excalibans become versions of Lincoln and Surak and actually get killed ( Does Col. Green also fall on His own knife?) . But that is not the feel to me of the rest of this episode.

Presumably the only 2 of the 8 combatants who are actually who they appear to be are Kirk and Spock the other 6 (2 good 4 evil) are being played by Excalibans.
So are the other 6 just playing roles and the Excalibans playing Lincoln and Surak just playing dead to test Kirk and Spock.

But, Kirk is told that the evil 4 were offered power as a motivation which might imply that some of the evil 4 were actually who they appeared to be? That would have required time travel though?

My first impression on seeing this episode was that only Kirk, Spock, Green and Kahless were real with something at stake and the other 4 were images projected or acted by the Excalibans and what happened to them was just an image.

I think it was more than just acting by the other Excalbians. They were apparently transformed in their consciousness so that they temporarily believed they were the people they appeared to be.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Watched The Savage Curtain today on CBS Action, and it struck me near the end they are raising the topic whether it is justified for more advanced beings to experiment on less intelligent beings. Something that is still a hotly disputed issue between those for/against animal experiments.

Kirk looks very taken aback after he has asked why the lava aliens
feel they have the right to have carried the experiment of good vs evil, and the alien replies along the lines of 'By the same right that brought you here'

That's a great moment, an example of how Roddenberry and Coon could present complex ethical issues in very few words and provoke a lot of thought. Kirk is basically left without an argument.

 

[Ssosmcin]

That's a great moment, an example of how Roddenberry and Coon could present complex ethical issues in very few words and provoke a lot of thought. Kirk is basically left without an argument.

Coon was long gone by this point and I don't think Roddenberry was around either. According to Cushman's account, he didn't write the last half of the story (I know, I know, but that's what we've got).

 

[Timo]

I wouldn't read too much into the phrase "that planet "; I think it's just an appositive phrase for "the planet just named." Remember the other scene when Yarnek says: "You find my body heat distressing, Captain? You forget the nature of this planet."

Exactly the reason to read something into it: "that" vs. "this"!

I think it was more than just acting by the other Excalbians. They were apparently transformed in their consciousness so that they temporarily believed they were the people they appeared to be.

Yet no Excalbian was said to be doing anything but "watch" or "observe". I doubt they had to resort to something as clumsy as shapeshifting in order to create their illusions...

For all we know, the Excalbians had actually, physically, really kidnapped each of these people in turn, and all of them were now available to them for experimentation, even though the originals (or copies?) had been sent back, none the worse for the wear. And from this episode on, the Excalbians also had Kirk and Spock to play with...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Yet no Excalbian was said to be doing anything but "watch" or "observe". I doubt they had to resort to something as clumsy as shapeshifting in order to create their illusions...

For all we know, the Excalbians had actually, physically, really kidnapped each of these people in turn, and all of them were now available to them for experimentation, even though the originals (or copies?) had been sent back, none the worse for the wear. And from this episode on, the Excalbians also had Kirk and Spock to play with...

Timo Saloniemi

Well, no, Spock was monitoring on the sensor as one of the rock creatures transformed into Lincoln. So no theory makes sense except Spock's conjecture that the Excalbians created "images of Surak and Lincoln" out of Kirk and Spock's thoughts and "used their fellow creatures as source matter."

After all, if Colonel Green had really been transported there, why couldn't he remember where he came from? He didn't know because Kirk didn't know.