Yes
"They've all been answered."
Episode of the Week : Space Seed
- Thread starter Botany Bay
- Start date
"They've all been answered."
Putting those two together necessarily raises the question of who is really in control...
I trust Khan would have figured out a way to take over the ship no matter what. We already saw that security measures did not contain him - McGivers' antics played no role in his escape that we'd know of.
Me neither - but she could have done it b/c she knew Khan would take over the ship and become the alpha male in the neighborhood, which would make her own future all the brighter. She was just quick to react to changes in the winds of forturne.
Legitimacy, schlegitimacy. Going by the book didn't help Kirk much against the superman; some healthy disdain of the law, loyalty, or other such dusty old concepts was what saved the day.
Timo Saloniemi
I think the sequence of events went like this, MacGivers was under Khan's sway before he took over, but I don't think she actually helped, she just didn't oppose him. But she couldn't put up with or tolerate outright abusiveness of the crew, she didn't let Uhura get belted the second time and she saved Kirk, but even then she begged him not to hurt Khan. I don't think she really turned, but she also was complacent while Khan acted and derelict in her duty to report it immediately. Kirk was just too lenient with him and didn't take enough precautions to prevent this kind of attempt.
My one disappointment with Wrath of Khan was that they didn't get Madlyn Rhu. I think she was in ill health at the time, but still acting. Not sure if her MS had her wheelchair-bound yet, but having her disabled would provide as much revenge impulse to crazy Khan as her death.
She pulled a phaser on Kyle so Khan could get to his ship and wake up his followers. she was pivotal to his plan.
if she hadn't helped, he probably would have found another way.
Maybe she helped b/c Khan had the alpha male thing, but flipped back when she realized Kirk was good and Khan was evil, and that was more important than who was strongest and coolest.
Yet in the end she did seem to find Khan a pretty okay companion. "Good" and "evil" probably didn't affect the equation much, then.
Not that there would have been major differences between Kirk and Khan anyway. Both needed to be obeyed, and resorted to violence and coercion to achieve this (and both found "institutional basis" for such action). Neither spilled blood, even if it does appear Khan did try with Kirk. Both considered the crew of the other a major threat to be dealt with, and had rather petrified ideas about how the world should treat the other side. It's just that Khan was already a prince of millions while Kirk was still waiting for his flag rank... The "superior ambition" thing was the main difference, and probably a good argument for McGivers to choose like she did.
Timo Saloniemi
Not that there would have been major differences between Kirk and Khan anyway. Both needed to be obeyed, and resorted to violence and coercion to achieve this (and both found "institutional basis" for such action). Neither spilled blood, even if it does appear Khan did try with Kirk. Both considered the crew of the other a major threat to be dealt with, and had rather petrified ideas about how the world should treat the other side. It's just that Khan was already a prince of millions while Kirk was still waiting for his flag rank... The "superior ambition" thing was the main difference, and probably a good argument for McGivers to choose like she did.
Timo Saloniemi
Khan was a prince of just 40 people.
He committed domestic violence using his superior intellect to force McGivers to her knees and his team were a bunch of thugs in the same ilk. When losing the battle he was prepared to kill his entire team as well as Kirk's crew when he could have given up and saved both.
Kirk was in the military and presumably earned his rank. His decisions were mostly at the behest of Starfleet Command and the Federation.
Kirk does not coerce his crew. My boss does not coerce me at work. If I don't want to do what he tells me I have the option to leave as presumably to some extent Kirk's crew does.
Kirk only resorted to violence in this episode after being attacked. that does not make him as 'bad' as Khan.
Khan said he wanted a job as an engineer.
I think the specs for the Enterprise were on the internet anyway. In 'The Mark of Gideon' they seemed to know how to build a Starship from scratch.
The ending was less than satisfactory for me: I never got why Khan would want to blow up the Enterprise and kill himself. And the fight, since was established Kirk couldn't win in strenght.
But in every other aspect a fine episode, really one of the best.
But in every other aspect a fine episode, really one of the best.
Well, of 72, and for the time being. But the prospects of that changing looked good...
Kirk has often been in command of nobody but himself, but in case of that character as well, the audience has rested assured that things would soon return to normal again. However, Kirk commanding millions is a somewhat less likely vision than Khan doing so (although I trust Chief of Starfleet Operations actually commands the attention of a million at least).
...An act both sides appeared to greatly enjoy. The legalistic aspects of this are uninteresting as such, but one does wonder. TOS morals are a mixture of 1960s chauvinist conservatism and 2260s futurism: would "domestic violence" exist as a concept there? Khan would have a bunch of laws as well (many written by himself), no doubt giving him every right to do what he did, but since he ruled over non-supermen, his laws might deny others the right to do what he did.
None of them were seen doing the sort of leering, talking down and attempted raping that Kirk's officers and crew so often practiced.
Unless this was a ruse to get Kirk up close and personal, a situation where Khan was certain he would triumph. Delegated means to deal with the Captain had failed Khan so far, after all.
So Kirk's "powers" are hand-downs from people in actual positions of power, and he does as others tell. Is that his excuse? Khan is a self-made man, and takes responsibility for his own conduct...
In deep space, such an option is about as empty as the place where exercising it will get you... Redshirts die when Kirk tells them to, often for nothing (c.f. "Obsession"). This isn't something peculiar to Kirk: it's part and parcel of being a leader.
However, that's all beside the point. Kirk coerces Khan's crew; Khan coerces Kirk's. The mirror remains unbroken.
And Khan only after being detained.
Your mileage may vary.
Timo Saloniemi
I agree, but I think McGivers had a kink for that. There was cut dialog in which she said she wanted a man who would dominate. When he pushes her to her knees, she says she'll do whatever he asks. We know one thing she'll do is to pull a gun on the transporter crewman to help Khan take over the Enterprise. The episode knows we can fill in the blanks about what else he might have asked.
I agree. I reject Timo's view of the episode, but I like how Timo points out the scene in which they say they admire him without approving of him. I think Timo is right they're trying to suggest that Khan and Kirk are similar in some ways with that scene. I had never thought of that.
I think Kirk is good and Khan is evil. It's like the Savage Curtain. They use similar methods. But their motivations and end goals are completely different.
Glad I'm not the only one noticed that/jumped to that conclusion...
Anyway, 9/10 for me. Like everyone always says, great acting, the message of the week is handled well, and the ending is inventive. Bonus points for inspiring the best of all the ST films.
Question for the old-timers: Was Space Seed ever mentioned on anyone's top 10 list before TWOK? Like others, I simply can't separate the two anymore and I wonder if the votes would be clustering more around 7, rather than 9, if this poll existed in 1978.
I had that tape! Still do, in fact. On Paramount Gateway Video, released in 1982.
Yeah, that was a bit odd that their complete technical manuals were available to any patient in Sickbay. Military secrets? Not in this Federation, mister.
I agree that Khan is sort of a dark version of Kirk and they are quite evenly matched. They both are natural leaders and obviously care about their crews, and Kirk would have been just as clever and dangerous if the roles had been reversed.
And let me just say how much I enjoy when The Savage Curtain is cited as a reference for anything.
I don't think Khan wanted to die, but it was like a game of chicken with Kirk, he tried to kill him twice and I don't think Khan ever had to deal with the same guy three times in his life before, so he was desperate.
I forgot about pulling the phaser on Kyle, maybe she did that so Khan didn't just kill him? But you're right that certainly was helping, my mistake.
>Khan (...) was desperate.
He was more than desperate. He was wrathed.
(is that a real word?)
Wroth?
Oooh. I'm intrigued. Thanks!
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