Episode of the Week: Justice

[Captrek]

You know what is fun...?

There is no evidence that death penalty can be a valid deterrent...

...on early 21st century Earth. 24th century Rubicun Three may be different, especially if we credit my speculation that their justice system and other cultural traditions over the course of a few centuries have had the effect of breeding a population that is deterred by punishment.

There is no evidence that death penalty can be a valid deterrent

but it does very effectively separate criminals from society, as long as there are parole boards you can't say the same for jails.

You've never heard of a life sentence without the possibility of parole? Preventing parole by denying the parole board authority to parole a prisoner is certainly more humane than preventing his parole by killing him.

People on Death Row are typically there for over a decade while their case works its way through the judicial system. Do you worry about parole boards releasing such prisoners during that decade? Why do we need to kill the prisoner to prevent his parole after his case is resolved when we don't need to kill him to prevent his parole before his case is resolved?

 

[Zaku]

You know what is fun...?

There is no evidence that death penalty can be a valid deterrent...

...on early 21st century Earth. 24th century Rubicun Three may be different, especially if we credit my speculation that their justice system and other cultural traditions over the course of a few centuries have had the effect of breeding a population that is deterred by punishment.

I don't know. Usually in Star Trek alien races are not so alien (because we have the same progenitors?). Yes, they have different customs and societies, but our heroes can always relate with them (and teach them a moral lesson ).

Of course we have same exception (Sheliak?) but I understand the writers need to create alien races that home audience can understands...

 

[Jeyl]

This is an obvious stunt double because Wil Wheaton couldn’t do anything like that, and I don’t believe Wesley Crusher could do it either.

Didn't you get Gene Roddenberry's memo regarding the treatment of Wesley Crusher? Wesley is a GOD among men. The perfect being who makes even the most non-caring of aliens achieve a high level of profound love by the mere showing of his genius.

 

[Jeyl]

Ah, Justice. The polar opposite of "Code of Honor" in every way except for how bearable it is. I still can't escape the comparisons between the two. If there were any two episodes in TNG that would showcase just how crazy the people working behind the scenes were, Code of Honor and Justice would be a great two-parter.

In Code of Honor, you have a civilization made up entirely of black people who's customs justify the random kidnapping of individuals and forcing them to perform a battle to the death. When Picard objects to this course of events, Lutan, the leader of the Ligonians openly denounces the peace treaty between them, states that he will keep Lieutenant Yar for himself and will allow millions of people to die. No other Ligonian steps up to support Picard or even question Lutan. In fact, when the crew of the Enterprise conspire to change the situation that is beneficial for both parties, the Ligonians still denounce the federation for having such bad behavior.

With Justice, we have this society consisting of blonde, blue eyed, well fit, straight white people who live in such a joyful existence that they wear very little clothing and make out intimately in what I would assume to be public areas. When Wesley breaks one of their laws and is sentenced to death, some Edo are willing to defy their own laws and just let Wesley go. That's a pretty big step up from the Ligonian society.

Now, the Edo's clothing. With Gene Roddenberry's control over TMP giving us moments like this

and the Edo are supposed to be this perfect culture, I sometimes wonder if Gene ever thought about this being a good idea for future Trek uniforms.

 

[sonak]

Anyone think it is funny how a show can get us something like Justice and then give us something like Chain of Command a few years later? I don't think I know ANY other show that has improved so damn much over its entire run.

Chain of Command was five years later, not a few years. Five years in a series is a huge amount of time. Lots of shows are entirely different with that much time between them. Look at "Sliders" season 1 vs. season 5, or "X-Files" season 2 or 3 vs. season 7 or 8.


And then TNG season 7 took a big dip in quality again. Season 7 is probably the second-worst season after season 1. How many shows have their first and last seasons as their worst? Now THAT's weird.

 

[BillJ]

Anyone think it is funny how a show can get us something like Justice and then give us something like Chain of Command a few years later? I don't think I know ANY other show that has improved so damn much over its entire run.

I like Justice better.

 

[T'Girl]

I like Justice better.

I do too, Chain of Command is a decent episode, but hardly the best. I remember when Chain of Command first aired, my uncle was mailing VHS tapes of the episodes to us in Japan, at my uncle's recommendation, my parent wouldn't let me watch the episode because of the torture scenes. I was five.

In Code of Honor, you have a civilization made up entirely of black people

Well, the ruling group was black, we don't know of the whole civilization. Initially we might have thought all Vulcans were white, then we met Tuvok.

who's customs justify the random kidnapping of individuals and forcing them to perform a battle to the death.

Lutan was searching for someone to kill his wife, he apparently had tried this before with native women with no success. Yar was just the latest attempt. Yar didn't have to respond to the wife's challenge, she choose to fight.

You've never heard of a life sentence without the possibility of parole?

Death by incarceration? Yes, I've heard of it. Even after you figure that in, the national average time served for murder is less than nine years.

 

[Captrek]

You've never heard of a life sentence without the possibility of parole?

Death by incarceration? Yes, I've heard of it. Even after you figure that in, the national average time served for murder is less than nine years.

So what? If you think the sentences are too short, advocate for longer sentences. It's no reason to advocate killing people.

 

[Jeyl]

Well, the ruling group was black, we don't know of the whole civilization. Initially we might have thought all Vulcans were white, then we met Tuvok.

Wow. Someone who defends "Code of Honor" when there's literally nothing to defend. I'm not calling your opinion dumb or ludicrous, it's just wrong. You shouldn't give an episode a pass on something that they didn't include in the episode, especially when it comes to the depiction of an entire planetary culture. After all, that episode contains more black extras than any episode of Star Trek ever with the sole purpose of depicting this alien culture. You'd think if they wanted to send the message that this planet wasn't all black that it'd be easier to include someone caucasian, asian or whatever? The episode and the script even noted that their society resembles the French, Chinese and even Native Americans. When you think of those three cultures, where does "all african tribal" stereotype come into play?

Your point about there being non-black folks on this planet is wrong because that was Russ Mayberry's intention. I mean, if you directed this episode and people took offense to it, do you honestly think the "The planet's inhabitants aren't all black" defense is going to work when you show nothing but black people? If Russ tried that argument, it didn't work since Gene Roddenberry himself fired him from the show.

Quit defending what is obviously a racist episode.

 

[BillJ]

Quit defending what is obviously a racist episode.

No more offensive than all the planets that are made up by primarily white people with a person of color shoved in the background as a token.

 

[sonak]

Well, the ruling group was black, we don't know of the whole civilization. Initially we might have thought all Vulcans were white, then we met Tuvok.

Wow. Someone who defends "Code of Honor" when there's literally nothing to defend. I'm not calling your opinion dumb or ludicrous, it's just wrong. You shouldn't give an episode a pass on something that they didn't include in the episode, especially when it comes to the depiction of an entire planetary culture. After all, that episode contains more black extras than any episode of Star Trek ever with the sole purpose of depicting this alien culture. You'd think if they wanted to send the message that this planet wasn't all black that it'd be easier to include someone caucasian, asian or whatever? The episode and the script even noted that their society resembles the French, Chinese and even Native Americans. When you think of those three cultures, where does "all african tribal" stereotype come into play?

Your point about there being non-black folks on this planet is wrong because that was Russ Mayberry's intention. I mean, if you directed this episode and people took offense to it, do you honestly think the "The planet's inhabitants aren't all black" defense is going to work when you show nothing but black people? If Russ tried that argument, it didn't work since Gene Roddenberry himself fired him from the show.

Quit defending what is obviously a racist episode.

I don't disagree with you, but are you really telling somebody else not to express their opinion?

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Well, the ruling group was black, we don't know of the whole civilization. Initially we might have thought all Vulcans were white, then we met Tuvok.

Wow. Someone who defends "Code of Honor" when there's literally nothing to defend. I'm not calling your opinion dumb or ludicrous, it's just wrong. You shouldn't give an episode a pass on something that they didn't include in the episode, especially when it comes to the depiction of an entire planetary culture. After all, that episode contains more black extras than any episode of Star Trek ever with the sole purpose of depicting this alien culture. You'd think if they wanted to send the message that this planet wasn't all black that it'd be easier to include someone caucasian, asian or whatever? The episode and the script even noted that their society resembles the French, Chinese and even Native Americans. When you think of those three cultures, where does "all african tribal" stereotype come into play?

Your point about there being non-black folks on this planet is wrong because that was Russ Mayberry's intention. I mean, if you directed this episode and people took offense to it, do you honestly think the "The planet's inhabitants aren't all black" defense is going to work when you show nothing but black people? If Russ tried that argument, it didn't work since Gene Roddenberry himself fired him from the show.

Quit defending what is obviously a racist episode.

I think you should quit telling other posters what to do. Express your own opinions - fine - telling others what to do is out of line.

 

[T'Girl]

I'm not calling your opinion dumb or ludicrous

Since neither applies, how accurate of you.

Your point about there being non-black folks on this planet is ...

Based upon (again) all the Vulcans we saw initially were white, then we saw a black Vulcan. Bolians were blue, until we met one who was grey. Andorians were pale blue, then deeper blue, then white. Klingon skin pigment is a number of colors.

where does "all african tribal" stereotype come into play?

Kind of wondering this myself, the culture depicted wasn't (your words) "African tribal," The clothing style was Arabic, with turbans, silk, and vests. And the script described the culture as Oriental, that was the intent.

Where did you see "African tribal?"

Quit defending what is obviously a racist episode.

No defense, simply pointing out posted accuracies.

 

[Timo]

...Intriguingly, it seems the heroes didn't see "African tribal", either. Instead, Picard told Lutan that "you remind me of something we had back on Earth and rather appreciated", and then proceeds to symbolize that appreciation with a Song dynasty artifact. So apparently Picard thinks these people are either like Song Chinese, or then like the Mongols to whom the Song were forced to pay similar tribute. Nothing "African tribal" about either culture.

...Or then Picard is thinking "Oh, God, these people even smell disgusting! But we need the medicine. And I got really high grades in advanced diplomatic bullshitting at the Academy. Now, which of my archaeological junk shelf back row dust-gatherers can I part with...?". That still doesn't mean he's considering the folks "African tribal".

What's wrong with African tribal, BTW? Is it out of season?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jeyl]

No more offensive than all the planets that are made up by primarily white people with a person of color shoved in the background as a token.

So a planet ruled by people who openly celebrate kidnapping, have openly sexist views towards women and are all black is equally as offensive as a planet that actually does have some diversity? And this episode wasn't even written to have all the inhabitants of the planet be black. How is that equally offensive when the offense part is intentional?

And for all the talk about how there might be non-black people on Ligon II, no one seems interested in knowing if there are any non-white Edos in Justice. You would have a hard time just trying to find anyone who didn't have blonde hair. Unlike Code of Honor, Justice was specifically written and casted this way.

Also, about that Tribal African stuff, tell me. Where are the french and Chinese influences? Because when I see a row of black people banging on sticks to a guy who has a pretty thick African accent, I don't think anyone would associate them with the French, Chinese or Native American. Even TNG's story consultant Tracy Tormé thought that the portrayal of blacks in this episode was more akin to african tribals from the 1940s.

And if you want to defend a racist episode, feel free to. I just don't see how any good would come of it.

 

[T'Girl]

So a planet ruled by people who openly celebrate kidnapping

Like kidnapping the planetary leader of Ardana? There is nothing that remotely suggest that kidnapping is celebrated.

have openly sexist views towards women

Wow, that really singles them out.

Remember, we talking about a planet where women own the property and wealth, freely select their primary husband, and have multiple husbands. Lutan was the planet's leader because he was Yareena "first one." When Yareena selected Hagon, he became "first one," and Lutan stepped aside.

Hagon: "... Captain, you may excel in technology, but not in civilised behaviour."

and are all black is equally as offensive as

Now this is where you're not being clear. If they were hypothedically a "all black species," what could possibily be wrong with that?

And this episode wasn't even written to have all the inhabitants of the planet be black.

As I understand it, the majority of the characters were not assigned a skin color, except for a notation that two body guard were to be black, it was up to the director to cast the various parts.

Why do you Jeyl have a problem with hiring black actors and actresses?

And for all the talk about how there might be non-black people on Ligon II, no one seems interested in knowing if there are any non-white Edos in Justice.

Maybe it's just me and my experiences in "The Real World," but I do make the assumption that all Star Trek planets have diverse populations, just because the government of a particular planet have a black leadership doesn't (to me) mean that EVERYONE on that planet is also black.

The Halkan Council was composed of only white males, I assumed there are woman somewhere on their planet. And males of various different pigments.

When have we ever seen a non-white Vulcan government official? Not all Vulcans are "white."

Unlike Code of Honor, Justice was specifically written and casted this way.

Isn't you prime objection to Code of Honor that it was cast a certain way.

Would your objections Jeyl magically disappear if every aspect of Code of Honor were the same, except the black actors that you have a problem with were replaced with standard white people? Or Asians? Or Arabs? Or Native Americans? Anybody but blacks?

to a guy who has a pretty thick African accent ...

What exactly is a "African accent" anyway? Africa possesses six major language families, and there are over three thousand separate languages. What "African accent" were you referring to?

a racist episode

Maybe it's not the episode.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not sure Jeyl really knows why he/she is enraged?

 

[Jeyl]

Remember, we talking about a planet where women own the property and wealth, freely select their primary husband, and have multiple husbands. Lutan was the planet's leader because he was Yareena "first one." When Yareena selected Hagon, he became "first one," and Lutan stepped aside.

And how does that work exactly? If she died and Lutan now owns all her property, than why is it that she gets it back when she comes back to life? Why does not being married to him work with death and the other does not? And how about this conversation?

Picard: You to understand the proper value of women.
Lutan: We understand that they are highly pleasant things, but after all, unimportant.

Now this is where you're not being clear. If they were hypothedically a "all black species," what could possibily be wrong with that?

So you're going to draw the "This episode isn't racist! You're racist!" card? Ok, I'll bite. You assume I take issue with the idea of having an all black planet. That is incorrect. I take issue with the director for taking a script about a planet full of arrogant barbaric a-holes and deciding that instead of making it diverse like the script said it was, he decided that everyone should all be played by black actors. Again, I don't have any issue with having a planet who's inhabitants are all black. What makes Code of Honor special is that it's the ONLY PLANET in all of Star Trek that has only black people on them, which is the reason I compare it to Justice.

In Code of Honor, there's really no reason why the Federation should be dealing with Ligonians at all. They are not depicted as a society that we want to be friends with, but we're forced to because of that very tacked on pandemic plot. The Edos in Justice on the other hand are the most welcoming, kind hearted and hospitable people that the crew can't help but ogle at how innocent and care free they are. Even when the law is broken, they're willing to let the crew take the criminal away so he doesn't have to die.

Lagonians who are all black: Negative image
Edos who are all white: Positive image

 

[BillJ]

Lagonians who are all black: Negative image
Edos who are all white: Positive image

Actually, the only one who projected a negative image was Lutan. Who was trying to use Yar to eliminate his wife. The Edo are presented as nothing more than simpleton playthings for the crew.

I'm not sure your "positive/negative" view of the two cultures holds up under scrutiny.

 

[T'Girl]

And how does that work exactly? If she died and Lutan now owns all her property, than why is it that she gets it back when she comes back to life?

Because Yareena's the woman, and they have the power. Lutan was trying to beat the system, it didn't work.

Picard: You to understand the proper value of women.
Lutan: We understand that they are highly pleasant things, but after all, unimportant.

And in spite of that bravado statement, Lutan held his position solely because he was Yareena "first one."

a script about a planet full of arrogant barbaric a-holes and deciding that instead of making it diverse like the script said it was, he decided that everyone should all be played by black actors.

Refresh my memory, other than Lutan, who else was a arrogant barbaric asshole, on this so called (by you) "planet full of arrogant barbaric a-holes."

And where specifically do you see barbaric? This is a technological civilization, Picard was able to wrestle with one of these people at th academy, suggesting they possess warp drive. They have their own transporter technology. That puts them at least equivalent to late 22nd century Earth.

Are they barbaric because they have duels? So do the Vulcans and the Andorians.

Again, I don't have any issue with having a planet who's inhabitants are all black.

Might want to read back over your previous posts, you entire object to this episode is the color of the actors hired.

What makes Code of Honor special is that it's the ONLY PLANET in all of Star Trek that has only black people on them

And if the actors hired had been entirely white ... like in many episodes, you'd be fine with the episode. Which bring us back to you not wanting a solely black guest star episode.

n Code of Honor, there's really no reason why the Federation should be dealing with Ligonians at all.

They possess a drug that can't be replicated.

They are not depicted as a society that we want to be friends with ...

Why not? Other than Lutan they seem okay.

but we're forced to because of that very tacked on pandemic plot.

That would be the B story line.

The Edos in Justice on the other hand are the most welcoming, kind hearted and hospitable people ...

Other than the whole death penalty for everything deal, a fact which apparently isn't in the information packet they dispense to visitors..

Lagonians who are all black: Negative image
Edos who are all white: Positive image

Only to some people here.

I liked the Edos, and I liked the Lagonians. I though both had interesting societies.