Episode Conundrum issues

[half-fast]

I have to say that, I have seen this episode more than numerous times. I believe it to be one of the most original star trek concepts, that is actually quite interesting.

I'm new to these forums, so I can imagine that this might be beating a dead horse, but I just need to know how many other people are bothered by the fact that data is beaten by Troi at chess?

One other observation is the question of Dr Crushers sexuality. This normally wouldn't even be an issue, but because I assumed she was purely hetero all these years, and now noticed this, I'm curious if anyone else noticed it.

When the crew first loses their memory, Crusher is in Sickbay with a young, attractive give woman in a bathing suit. They have no idea who they are, and the young woman proceeds to ask Crusher if she can have some clothes to cover up, and Crusher doesn't answer, instead, turning away with a peculiar look on her face, as if she has an idea, or even borderline curious.

I've seen this episode so many times, and it never struck me as odd, but I'm really starting to wonder if maybe Crusher found it exciting to explore that option since she cannot remember her identity. Thoughts?

 

[Longinus]

I'm new to these forums, so I can imagine that this might be beating a dead horse, but I just need to know how many other people are bothered by the fact that data is beaten by Troi at chess?

Yes, this always bugged me. They should have used some other game, one that relies more on intuition rather than intelligence. It is especially odd when compared to 'Peak Performance' where Data was dispirited when he lost in the space tetris.

 

[Unicron]

Some humans are brilliant at chess, and can be beaten by other humans under the right circumstances. I think it would be a mistake to assume Data should be unbeatable by virtue of being an android, because chess in particular excels at being a psychological game. Sometimes the best strategy is to think creatively and not logically, and even if you lose you can make the game far more complex for your opponent.

 

[half-fast]

Yes, this always bugged me. They should have used some other game, one that relies more on intuition rather than intelligence. It is especially odd when compared to 'Peak Performance' where Data was dispirited when he lost in the space tetris.

yes, exactly, good point. I thought of that episode as well. If I recall, he ended up drawing the "galactic champion". That's a pretty epic title.

Some humans are brilliant at chess, and can be beaten by other humans under the right circumstances. I think it would be a mistake to assume Data should be unbeatable by virtue of being an android, because chess in particular excels at being a psychological game. Sometimes the best strategy is to think creatively and not logically, and even if you lose you can make the game far more complex for your opponent.

I like your answer, and yes chess is strategy and psychological, but I'm afraid if computers now can beat our world champions, it will only get worse in the future when cpus get faster and neural networks and deep learning evolve.

Go, is a chinese game, if youre unaware of it, that is more complex than chess, and recently a computer beat the world champion. In the brand of chess that they play in Star Trek, with far more possible moves available, a computer, that far in the future, with Data's capacity(displayed by other insanely complex problems he solves, nevermind simply as he walks, talks and interacts as a competent, certified Starfleet officer) would be able to calculate all moves and outcomes so quickly, Troi wouldnt stand a chance.

 

[at Quark's]

Part of the problem is that they had a bet. So, it would make sense that Data was convinced he would win. So that would probably exclude games like poker.

Then again, it is three-dimensional chess they are playing. For all we know it is not nearly as closely related to 'our' chess as the name seems to suggest, and cannot be 'computed' to the same degree as classic chess ...

 

[Paradise City]

I love this episode. But there's alot of dumb stuff in it. The two antagonists are at an agricultural level of technology yet one of them has enough expertise to deftly manipulate the Enterprise computer and create agents that are so human the Enterprise medical scanners are none the wiser. But it's great episode nevertheless. It's cool to see Worf try to call the shots. And this McDuff guy try to appeal to Worf's warrior nature. And of course Riker and Ro. hahaha.

 

[Tosk]

It's a good episode the first time, but the reveal of what was going on makes the set-up quite stupid.

It's got some great characters bits though, no doubt.

 

[Timo]

The fighting sides don't have phasers and photon torpedoes, but they are still centuries ahead of us the 21st century Earthlings, not "agrarian". Why couldn't they have come up with the amnesia tech before they came up with phasers?

And once it becomes clear they are messing with our heroes' brains, manipulation of technology becomes sort of irrelevant. Why bother to manipulate the E-D computer when the brains can be made to think that the computer contains nothing of relevance?

As for Data losing in chess, he doesn't. After all, he plays both sides! It's he who comes up with a seven-move victory for Troi - as far as we know, she never had any idea of those moves or the victory they would bring. And nothing says Data couldn't make countermoves that prevent that victory-in-seven-moves, and then come up with counter-countermoves that return the victory to Troi, ad nauseum.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

They might come up with amnesia technology but would they be able to manipulate a Galaxy class computer to such a degree? Not a hope.

 

[Tosk]

And yet they do, which raises the question of why they don't just leave the crew asleep and tell the computer to attack the outpost. Why bother with the ruse? And if they really had to do it that way, why isn't McDuff pretending to be captain?

 

[RAMA]

It's a fantastic episode with a conceit that doesn't really hold water.

The best I can suggest, is that this amnesia plan is their "Manhattan Project", or even a Moon mission project. In the latter case, they USA went from being the second nation in space with a glorified V2 rocket as their launch vehicle in 1961, to a 363 foot rocket that spews out 7.6 million pounds of thrust and launches men to the moon just 8 years later...a technology that won't be replicated till 51 years later in 2020, when the SLS will have that heavy lift capability again.

I have to say that, I have seen this episode more than numerous times. I believe it to be one of the most original star trek concepts, that is actually quite interesting.

I'm new to these forums, so I can imagine that this might be beating a dead horse, but I just need to know how many other people are bothered by the fact that data is beaten by Troi at chess?

One other observation is the question of Dr Crushers sexuality. This normally wouldn't even be an issue, but because I assumed she was purely hetero all these years, and now noticed this, I'm curious if anyone else noticed it.

When the crew first loses their memory, Crusher is in Sickbay with a young, attractive give woman in a bathing suit. They have no idea who they are, and the young woman proceeds to ask Crusher if she can have some clothes to cover up, and Crusher doesn't answer, instead, turning away with a peculiar look on her face, as if she has an idea, or even borderline curious.

I've seen this episode so many times, and it never struck me as odd, but I'm really starting to wonder if maybe Crusher found it exciting to explore that option since she cannot remember her identity. Thoughts?

 

[Timo]

And yet they do.

Who says they do? Our heroes? We have no reason to believe them. The Satarrans manipulate brains. They stop the heroes from thinking like they should. So there's their angle to controlling the computer already, to making the heroes only see what they are required to see.

The best I can suggest, is that this amnesia plan is their "Manhattan Project", or even a Moon mission project.

This one I don't get at all. Why would amnesia beams be more advanced than warp drivers? Were I a betting man, I'd wager my head that ITRW, amnesia beams come before warp drives. It's just that for some reason, nobody in the UFP was clever enough to invent the tech, or then suffered from an oppressive regime that stops well-meaning inventors of WMDs, torture devices and brain scramblers...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

Who says they do? Our heroes? We have no reason to believe them. The Satarrans manipulate brains. They stop the heroes from thinking like they should. So there's their angle to controlling the computer already, to making the heroes only see what they are required to see.

Okay, if they can manipulate brains so that the crew see readouts that aren't real then why can't they manipulate brains to just do what they want in the first place?

 

[RAMA]

Okay, if they can manipulate brains so that the crew see readouts that aren't real then why can't they manipulate brains to just do what they want in the first place?

Because they need the crew to be able to function normally. That's the reason most of their brain/memory was left intact. Obviously that's really precise control..but hey somehow the writers pulled it off.

 

[Tosk]

Because they need the crew to be able to function normally.

1. Why?
2. Why can't they manipulate them in the way they need to and still have them function normally? They can make them see what they want them to but they can't make them see that McDuff is captain and has ultimate authority? The defenses were pathetic, one person could have wiped them out with the Enterprise.

 

[RAMA]

1. Why?
2. Why can't they manipulate them in the way they need to and still have them function normally? They can make them see what they want them to but they can't make them see that McDuff is captain and has ultimate authority? The defenses were pathetic, one person could have wiped them out with the Enterprise.

Speculation: Controlling the whole brain in their technology created "zombies" that didn't function well enough. They had to use a progression of realization of their own thoughts to become aware enough to react normally despite lacking specific memories. Obviously this is just speculation since we can't control thoughts easily. Though this particular caveat has been used before in Scifi.

 

[Paradise City]

The issue with these guys is that they have enough technology to outclass a Galaxy class computer. They can develop extremely sophisticated clones that can elude medical scanners in the midst of brain surgery and yet they haven't got the know-how to develop the kind of phasers that's readily available on the interstellar arms market in the middle of their zero sum war? I mean they could've tidied up the writing by saying the Satarrans wanted a sneak attack on an unsuspecting foe, so they can implicate the feds and keep their own hands clean. But what's put before us on screen doesn't bear close scrutiny.

 

[Timo]

Okay, if they can manipulate brains so that the crew see readouts that aren't real then why can't they manipulate brains to just do what they want in the first place?

That's what they are doing. They are getting the crew to fly this mission of destruction for them, on a starship the Satarrans themselves could never hope to operate.

They just aren't doing a 100% perfect job at it, which is to be expected. There's slipping everywhere: the crew ponders morals, launches on dangerous venues of speculation, and manages to recall some bits of their past. The overall effect is pretty good, though, almost allowing the mission to be completed.

Why they don't put McDuff in command seems obvious enough: he couldn't tell a phaser from a phase discriminator. Why they put him aboard at all is less clear: if they feel the ship needs supervisors, why not send fifty at least, in the best case perhaps even capable of learning to press the right firing buttons when the heroes finally (and inevitably) come to their senses?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

The issue with these guys is that they have enough technology to outclass a Galaxy class computer.

But that's not an existing issue. Not if they only manipulate brains.

the interstellar arms market

It's indicated in the teaser that this area is not frequented by outsiders: our heroes have no proof that there's intelligent life there at all. If our heroes never go there, it's quite possible nobody else does, either.

Of course, both the Satarrans and the Lysians would be wise not to volunteer contact with outsiders. If they need arms dealers to protect themselves, arms dealers are the very last people they should be contacting!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RAMA]

Not necessarily. They managed to disable the computer or make it susceptible enough to manipulate it. There's a difference in that to overtly overpowering it.

It's also possible--as has been suggested--that they didn't see everything the computer was telling them, that they themselves were mentally manipulated in some way to not see or to see things.

The issue with these guys is that they have enough technology to outclass a Galaxy class computer. They can develop extremely sophisticated clones that can elude medical scanners in the midst of brain surgery and yet they haven't got the know-how to develop the kind of phasers that's readily available on the interstellar arms market in the middle of their zero sum war? I mean they could've tidied up the writing by saying the Satarrans wanted a sneak attack on an unsuspecting foe, so they can implicate the feds and keep their own hands clean. But what's put before us on screen doesn't bear close scrutiny.