Entitlements

[TheLonelySquire]

I'm not saying that the system doesn't need to be repaired. It does. I just disagree that the government running it is the answer.

The government running it is a vastly superior option to what we have now.

Look, the US doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are other countries and other systems that we can compare and contrast to. And countries with government run health care systems have problems that are much more manageable then ours and their overall quality of care is better.

I care a lot less about political ideology then I care about making sure everyone has a minimum standard of care and access to the specialized care that they may need. What are your priorities?

My priorities are that people that are elderly, disabled, and children get access to health care whether they can afford it or not. People that are adults should have access to affordable heath care that is not run by the government. The government can take a role in helping to reign in costs, but as far as administrating health care? No way.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Don't forget about the UK. That's just as much an immigration haven as the USA is.

Oh, I know the UK has their fair share. I don't think the total # in the past 200 years is on the same scale however.

The total and diversity in the past 2,500 years is probably second to none, however.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm wondering what you folks believe about the following. This is specifically for the USA residents.

Every person is entitled to government assured:

(Yes or no answers are fine)

1. Health care from cradle to grave.

Yes.

2. Day care.

Should be free for families whose income is below a certain level.

3. College education

Should not be free, but the gov't should provide grants for the poor and interest free loans in order to ensure that it is universally accessible to those who meet the entrance criteria.

4. Place to live.

Low income families should be guaranteed a subsidy, as no child should live on the street. Adults are also entitled to a safe place to sleep, but it need not be any more elaborate than a bed in a homeless shelter.

5. Food.

Yes, everyone is entitled to a basic and reliable diet. Gov't should ensure that food banks are sufficiently funded to meet the needs of the poor.

6. Transportation.

Kind of. Every person should have access to reasonably priced and reasonably reliable public transit if they live in a urban center.

7. Retirement income.

Yes.

8. Burial plot.

No.

 

[RoJoHen]

Attitudes need to change about transportation. Yes I know America is the Car Culture Of The World but when it comes right down to it... cars are a cause of some of our biggest problems.

The culture right now states that if you do not have a car you are somehow less a being than someone who owns one. Some places you are considered a slackoff deadbeat one step below chronic criminals if you take the bus or ride a bike

I know a person who drives her car one and a half miles to work every day, she's 400 pounds. She also feels her wages should float higher when gas prices rise. Heck alot of people around "here" feel the same way.

If we could overcome the whole "car as measure of personal worth" and "status symbol" mentality we would reduce our dependency on foreign oil AND we'd stop being a society of ever-fattening people. You lose alot of weight when you bike three miles to work. Or walk.

Bus systems, trains, subways... all neglected in these parts because Real Men and Woman own cars or they aren't worth talking to. Get over that, and we'll see some real positive societal changes.

Yeah, I'm tired of giving all these deadbeats rides home after work!

Granted, it's not that they don't have cars. It's that they all have 2 or 3 DUIs.

 

[Plecostomus]

Some of us had to give up driving for awhile due to other medical conditions.

Try having to pay for treatment on $7.50 an hour because a machine shop two blocks away won't hire you... because you don't have a car.

Your attitude is a perfect example of what needs to be changed.

 

[RoJoHen]

Your attitude is a perfect example of what needs to be changed.

My attitude was joking around. I have absolutely no problem giving people rides. I just wish I was giving them rides because they couldn't afford a car rather than because they drunk drove and got their license taken away.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Some of us had to give up driving for awhile due to other medical conditions.

Try having to pay for treatment on $7.50 an hour because a machine shop two blocks away won't hire you... because you don't have a car.

Perhaps it's strange to imagine for an American, but some don't want a car; I know of enough people who go to everything with public transportation. Granted, public transportation here is good enough to allow such a thing, but still; it's cheaper, it's (usually) on time and you never have to drive yourself, you just have to sit down and read a book, or watch a good movie.

 

[Leroy]

Leroy, see I think that health care needs to be made affordable and available to those that are able to work. Of course those that cannot need to be helped. But let's focus on making it affordable, not letting government actually run the system. Cause bad things happen in terms of efficiency when that happens. Look at virtually any other government agency.

Then how do you propose we make it affordable? If healthcare was affordable this wouldn't be an issue it would be as easy as paying for Cable TV and we wouldn't have talk of government run healthcare. You also ignore the fact that private companies and corporations are prone to inefficiencies just as government stuff is.

If we are to take the extreme capitalist viewpoint... that competition drives all markets and an open system gives the best results... why is it that in the US health care is both more expensive and of lower quality then anywhere else in the world?

The quality of care is the US isn't that bad it's that people get screwed over by insurance companies and go bankrupt or have nothing at all. That's the real weakness of the US system.

There is a solution to any problem. But the answer isn't in allowing the government to run it. That's simply ludicrous. You think they can make it run efficiently? You really do?

Then what's a way healthcare can be made affordable without government intervention? As for "inefficiencies" can you describe some?

And the US has the best doctors and best hospitals in the world.

If you have millions of dollars at your disposal.

Yes. Minimum levels of service, at least. Can make a tiered systems where you pay for more options, faster appointments, specific doctors, etc. Preventative care is MUCH cheaper and better for the patient than emergency care once the minor problem has become an emergency. Should also reduce the number of people that are injured and cannot work, if you provide a way to care for the injury before it becomes permanent.

We kind of have that now the tiers are set up based on what you can afford that's why people are underinsured and it's what's lead us to the mess we're in.

 

[Plecostomus]

Your attitude is a perfect example of what needs to be changed.

My attitude was joking around. I have absolutely no problem giving people rides. I just wish I was giving them rides because they couldn't afford a car rather than because they drunk drove and got their license taken away.

Ok fine. I'll take my self-righteous indignation and outrage over there for a little while....

 

[Canadave]

Some of us had to give up driving for awhile due to other medical conditions.

Try having to pay for treatment on $7.50 an hour because a machine shop two blocks away won't hire you... because you don't have a car.

Perhaps it's strange to imagine for an American, but some don't want a car; I know of enough people who go to everything with public transportation. Granted, public transportation here is good enough to allow such a thing, but still; it's cheaper, it's (usually) on time and you never have to drive yourself, you just have to sit down and read a book, or watch a good movie.

I wish I lived in a country where that was possible. In Canada, if you live in one of the big cities (pretty much Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) public transit is good enough that you can live without a car fairly easily. I know I do. But the second you want to travel to another city, things become a real hassle. Our passenger rail network is underdeveloped and overpriced, air travel is expensive, and buses are cramped and extremely slow (you can generally count on about 1.5 hours of travel time for every 100 km you have to travel, at best). So, ultimately, I want a car so that I can visit friends and family in other cities with ease, because that's the only really viable option to do so.

 

[Colonel Green]

Some of us had to give up driving for awhile due to other medical conditions.

Try having to pay for treatment on $7.50 an hour because a machine shop two blocks away won't hire you... because you don't have a car.

Perhaps it's strange to imagine for an American, but some don't want a car; I know of enough people who go to everything with public transportation. Granted, public transportation here is good enough to allow such a thing, but still; it's cheaper, it's (usually) on time and you never have to drive yourself, you just have to sit down and read a book, or watch a good movie.

I wish I lived in a country where that was possible. In Canada, if you live in one of the big cities (pretty much Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) public transit is good enough that you can live without a car fairly easily. I know I do. But the second you want to travel to another city, things become a real hassle. Our passenger rail network is underdeveloped and overpriced, air travel is expensive, and buses are cramped and extremely slow (you can generally count on about 1.5 hours of travel time for every 100 km you have to travel, at best). So, ultimately, I want a car so that I can visit friends and family in other cities with ease, because that's the only really viable option to do so.

I lived in Ottawa without a car for years. I never found the bus ride to visit my inlaws in North Bay to be inconvenient, it only took marginally longer than driving.

Now I live in Victoria without a car. It's great, I ride my bike everywhere year round. Saves me a fortune in gas, insurance and parking and it keeps me in shape.

 

[Arrqh]

In Canada, if you live in one of the big cities (pretty much Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) public transit is good enough that you can live without a car fairly easily.

I find the inclusion of Edmonton in that list somewhat suspect

You can get around without a car in Edmonton pretty easily if you live in the right places... but there are many places that are simply inaccessible by public transit. When I moved here 3 years ago the LRT was practically a joke, at least from my perspective (I lived for a year in downtown Vancouver and have also spent a lot of time in NYC as I grew up near there). They're improving it, but slowly.

 

[Canadave]

^ Well, that's true in any of those cities there are areas where you'd need a car (I wouldn't want to live in Kanata, here, and ride the bus, myself), but Edmonton does have places were you can live without one. And you're a hell of a lot better off there than, say, Timmins.

Perhaps it's strange to imagine for an American, but some don't want a car; I know of enough people who go to everything with public transportation. Granted, public transportation here is good enough to allow such a thing, but still; it's cheaper, it's (usually) on time and you never have to drive yourself, you just have to sit down and read a book, or watch a good movie.

I wish I lived in a country where that was possible. In Canada, if you live in one of the big cities (pretty much Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) public transit is good enough that you can live without a car fairly easily. I know I do. But the second you want to travel to another city, things become a real hassle. Our passenger rail network is underdeveloped and overpriced, air travel is expensive, and buses are cramped and extremely slow (you can generally count on about 1.5 hours of travel time for every 100 km you have to travel, at best). So, ultimately, I want a car so that I can visit friends and family in other cities with ease, because that's the only really viable option to do so.

I lived in Ottawa without a car for years. I never found the bus ride to visit my inlaws in North Bay to be inconvenient, it only took marginally longer than driving.

Speaking for myself, as someone who travels between Ottawa and Peterborough regularly, driving I can do that run in a little under 3.5 hours. The bus takes me 4.5-5 hours, and often runs at very incovenient times. As I said, I'd love for it to be a more useful option, but... *shrug*

 

[Michael Chris]

By the way I should mention the college education front. New Mexico pays tuition at NM schools for 8 semesters for those that are eligible (you need to go straight from high school or a GED to college, and you have maintain a fair GPA and so on). It's really awesome. I would most likely have to spend much longer than 4 years to get a bachelors. Plus it's voluntarily funded.

I would have liked to have gone out of state to a better school, but you can't beat that deal.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
Is that the lottery thing?

I've been told that it isn't so great anymore. Also, apparently if you go to CNM you really have to jump through hoops to get it.

 

[Michael Chris]

^
Is that the lottery thing?

I've been told that it isn't so great anymore. Also, apparently if you go to CNM you really have to jump through hoops to get it.

Yes. And it is insanely easy, at least from my experience. I actually went to CNM (started in 2007) for my associates before I transferred to UNM to get a BBA. I never had to do anything about it other than let them see my HS degree (and put in a form so that CNM would send the records to UNM).