Enterprise vs TOS: Why Does Enterprise Lose the Canon War?

[Hopeful Romantic]

I think we've done "snippy" to death in these canon threads. Give it a rest, please.​

Or what? You'll warn me for use of inflammatory language like "axe to grind?"

If you persist in taking sideswipes at fellow members of this board -- which is against the rules, last time I checked -- you may earn yourself a warning. Do you make the situation better or worse by ignoring a moderator's request to chill out?

Just a thought.​

 

[Withers]

If you persist in taking sideswipes at fellow members of this board -- which is against the rules, last time I checked -- you may earn yourself a warning. Do you make the situation better or worse by ignoring a moderator's request to chill out?

Person 1: Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to calm down.
Man: I... I am, calm?
Person 1: I mean it sir, you're going to have to calm down!
Man: I am calm, what are you talking about, who are you?
Person 1: Sir if you don't calm down I'll have you arrested!!!
Man: I am calm!
Person 1: He's hostile! Book 'em!

-Withers-​

 

[Saquist]

Canon Shmanon. The reason why to some people Star Trek – Enterprise looks and feels so much closer to The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager than The Original Series is that chronologically it was produced closer to those shows. It's as easy as that. Storytelling conventions have changed over the decades, as have standards for production design and special effects. It is beyond me how some seem to be weirded out by the fact that Enterprise doesn't feel like a show from the 60s. Well, guess what, it isn't.

I agree 100%, however that said Relics, Trials and Tribbleations, and especially In a Mirror Darkly proved that it was possible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. I'll defend Enterprise to the end, but on this point I will concede that In a Mirror Darkly in a sense shot Enterprise in the ass by proving that they could have given the show a TOS look from day one.

That said, there's a lot more to "the TOS style" than just set design. There's music, writing style, even performance style to take into account. So it probably still wouldn't have felt like a "true" TOS prequel, no matter which way you cut it. It was probably impossible to do so, which is probably why more than a few "bashers" were of the opinion the prequel simply should never have been attempted.

Alex

I think you're correct.
In a Mirror Darkly was definitely a richochet round in the hindquarters against the show.

I think I get mistaken as a basher of the show because of the argument on contradictions but as an artist, I know nothing is impossible. I'd be out of the job if conducted that attitude.

I was always of the opinion that The TOS needed a face-lift. They did a good job on the TOS-R. It was modest et modern. That is exactly what Enterprise could have done. ENT is 100 years in the past so I never thought it should look exactly like TOS. but the Face lift idea for ENT of the TOS stil retroed toward our time would have been interesting as an art challenge. I think I could have appealed to everyone and give it's own defined character that would seem so alien to TOS.

At the same time I love how all the Trek series treated the TOS with a venerable spirt reproducing the bridge the old ship model...faithfully.

 

[muzzleflash]

I agree 100%, however that said Relics, Trials and Tribbleations, and especially In a Mirror Darkly proved that it was possible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. I'll defend Enterprise to the end, but on this point I will concede that In a Mirror Darkly in a sense shot Enterprise in the ass by proving that they could have given the show a TOS look from day one

Alex

Nobody said it was impossible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. The problem is that the TOS look and feel itself is dated. Trials and Tribbleations and In a Mirror Darkly simply showcased the same terrible 60s aesthetic with higher film quality.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I agree 100%, however that said Relics, Trials and Tribbleations, and especially In a Mirror Darkly proved that it was possible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. I'll defend Enterprise to the end, but on this point I will concede that In a Mirror Darkly in a sense shot Enterprise in the ass by proving that they could have given the show a TOS look from day one

Alex

Nobody said it was impossible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. The problem is that the TOS look and feel itself is dated. Trials and Tribbleations and In a Mirror Darkly simply showcased the same terrible 60s aesthetic with higher film quality.

I agree. Having it appear in a one off adventure is very differerent than it appearing week after week.

 

[Saquist]

I don't believe so.
There is a way to SUBTLY update TOS's look within the parameters of the show.
HECK, NASA's style isn't too far way from TOS.

 

[Withers]

http://jjscholar.com/Chapters/spaceshuttle_graphics/space_shuttle_gc.jpg


Enterprise looked like an updated version of that (a shuttle cockpit.) It did not, however, look like a precursor to TOS because that would be this


http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2009/06/jetsons.jpg

You say you could have done it in such a way that appeased everybody? The only way I can think of accomplishing that monumental task would be to go back in time and actually produce Enterprise 100 years before TOS. Otherwise...

"There's nothing so great that someone somewhere won't hate it- and vise versa."

-Withers-​

 

[Saquist]

http://jjscholar.com/Chapters/spaceshuttle_graphics/space_shuttle_gc.jpg

Enterprise looked like an updated version of that. It did not, however, look like a precursor to TOS because that would be this

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2009/06/jetsons.jpg

You say you could have done it in such a way that appeased everybody? The only way I can think of accomplishing that monumental task would be to go back in time and actually produce Enterprise 100 years before TOS. Otherwise...

"There's nothing so great that someone somewhere won't hate it- and vise versa."

-Withers-​

This image is exactly what I'm talking about.
The same use of physical controls and smooth surfaces without, the Modular pull outs. Simple colors, surfaced nicely...

add..more tasteful ascents to the Red Black and Bluish make up of the TOS bridge...

This is so easy. Those are easy colors to work with.
You guys forget that TOS was nothing more than artistic use of colors to create dept. The physical buttons and controls don't matter.

 

[SFRabid]

Don't like this. WAAAYYYYY to busy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Canon Shmanon. The reason why to some people Star Trek – Enterprise looks and feels so much closer to The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager than The Original Series is that chronologically it was produced closer to those shows. It's as easy as that. Storytelling conventions have changed over the decades, as have standards for production design and special effects. It is beyond me how some seem to be weirded out by the fact that Enterprise doesn't feel like a show from the 60s. Well, guess what, it isn't.

Yep. You think that this would go without saying, but no, people still can't get around the fact that the show is made in the 200s, and if it looks more contemporary than TOS, it's because of the production, not writing or continuity issues. Besides the effects and makeup issues, there is the fact that some of the technology in 60s SF shows including TOS is outdated even now, and when producing an SF show in the 2000s, you need to have a convincing vision of the future. All things considered, I think ENT did the best it could to make the 22nd century Enterprise and Starfleet less developed than the TOS Enterprise.

I remember a conversation in another thread where someone said ENT should have looked like a 1950s show. We concluded that flashbacks/time travel to 21st century should have been filmed as a silent movie, and 20th century should have been presented in cave paintings.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Withers and Saquist, regarding your latest posts:

Hotlinking is not allowed at TrekBBS. Also, image size should be a max of 640 pixels, and about 70kb, unless posted in a picture thread or something similar, where pictures are common.

Also, Saquist, editing another member's post to alter its content, as you did when you replaced one of Withers' images with your own, is not good form. Please refrain from this in future.

Please familiarize yourselves with the FAQ entry regarding images, and also this post by one of our Adminstrators regarding the posting of images.


ETA:

Upon further review, Saquist, my conclusion regarding the altering of post content was based on incomplete information. It appears the image in question was edited by the original poster while you were composing your reply. This happens rarely -- the timing needs to be just right (or wrong, I should say). My apologies for the misunderstanding. You're in the clear.

Carry on.

 

[SFRabid]

I agree 100%, however that said Relics, Trials and Tribbleations, and especially In a Mirror Darkly proved that it was possible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. I'll defend Enterprise to the end, but on this point I will concede that In a Mirror Darkly in a sense shot Enterprise in the ass by proving that they could have given the show a TOS look from day one

Alex

Nobody said it was impossible to replicate the look and feel of the TOS era in a modern production. The problem is that the TOS look and feel itself is dated. Trials and Tribbleations and In a Mirror Darkly simply showcased the same terrible 60s aesthetic with higher film quality.

I agree. Having it appear in a one off adventure is very differerent than it appearing week after week.

Exactly. When DS9 did the tribble episode they showed that DS9 could replicate the look and feel of TOS. It was fun for one episode. I'm glad it was only one episode. Who wants to watch an entire series of outdated scifi?

 

[Saquist]

I would go for it with updates.

 

[Withers]

You'd be in the extreme minority. You'd be in the crowd that would be happy with Star Trek 09 if the Enterprise looked like it did in 1960. It was neat how they recreated the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory for Trials and Tribbleations and In A Mirror Darkly but only in a nostalgic sense. Nothing about what was displayed was impressive or interesting to look at outside of the fact that it was so accurate a recreation.

-Withers-​

 

[Darth Duck]

I don't know, I think T&T and IAMD hit me for more than nostalgia. I just think the Enterprise from TOS, inside and out, looks good. The uniforms look good. Watching Brooks, Bakula, Blalock and Meaney in them looked good.

 

[SFRabid]

I'm watching ST VII and noticed a quote early in the movie.

Reporter to Kirk: "This will be the first Federation Enterprise without Kirk at the helm in 30 years."

So, is that indicating that the TOS Enterprise was not the first Enterprise in the Federation?

 

[Anwar]

They were probably referring to how the Enterprise was captained by Robert April and Pike before him.

 

[Withers]

I just think the Enterprise from TOS, inside and out, looks good. The uniforms look good. Watching Brooks, Bakula, Blalock and Meaney in them looked good.

You could have put them all in the costumes and on the set of Crouching Tiger Hidden Draggon and it would have looked good too- but it wouldn't have been futuristic and certainly not to a 21st century auidence and that's what I'm driving at in regard to watching outdated but modified sci-fi. Every generation has a vision of what we think the future will look like. In 1960 it was... bright colors and jeweled buttons. Now it's just upgrades on what we already have.

-Withers-​

 

[Darth Duck]

^ I don't think every generation has some monolithic outlook on future developments and what the future is going to look like. But who is to say that bright colours and jewelled buttons aren't the future?

 

[Withers]

^ I don't think every generation has some monolithic outlook on future developments and what the future is going to look like. But who is to say that bright colours and jewelled buttons aren't the future?

If you seriously think there's a large group of people out there who think TOS is what the future is going to look like, no offense, but you're deluding yourself. At this point the future looks functional (like... Minority Report or I, Robot.) In the 60's it just looked... well, like The Jetsons, futuristic but implausible, unpractical, and in certain cases inexplicable. The future doesn't look like that anymore. We realize that it isn't enough for it to just... look cool. Stuff has to look like it has a realistic function.

And yeah, there's a general consensus on what the future looks like in every generation, even if everybody doesn't necessarily agree. We see it in the media of any given era. In the 50's the future was automated houses (There Shall Come Soft Rains), in the 60's it was Star Trek and so on. There's a general idea perpetrated by the media of the time that defines what we think of as "the future."

Jeweled buttons and bright flashy lights and giant empty hallways aren't it anymore. They just... aren't. If they were XI's Enterprise would look a lot more like TOS' Enterprise than it did.

-Withers-​