Enterprise replica in Mark of Gideon

[Timo]

I just meant that if there's a clever interposing of two digits in, say, Metric units, there will be a clumsy change of multiple digits if the same coordinates are translated to, say, Imperial units. So if the Gideonites are counting on the heroes being blind to two switched digits, they better make sure they send coordinates for which the switch will happen.

The thing here is, two different people received the two different sets of coordinates, which is why there was no way they could notice a discrepancy. Were the Gideonites clever enough to calculate that Kirk would be sent down by a top officer, but subsequent transportation would involve a lowly minion because the top officer would be managing the crisis?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mario de Monti]

I just meant that if there's a clever interposing of two digits in, say, Metric units, there will be a clumsy change of multiple digits if the same coordinates are translated to, say, Imperial units. So if the Gideonites are counting on the heroes being blind to two switched digits, they better make sure they send coordinates for which the switch will happen.

Ah ok, I understood you now. Good point.

The thing here is, two different people received the two different sets of coordinates, which is why there was no way they could notice a discrepancy. Were the Gideonites clever enough to calculate that Kirk would be sent down by a top officer, but subsequent transportation would involve a lowly minion because the top officer would be managing the crisis?

Considering how much else the Gideonites took into account and to what extraordinary length they went to accomplish their goal, this doesn´t seem all that impossible

 

[Robert Comsol]

Of course, the non-compatible transporter coordinates where a clue for Spock to discover (from a scriptwriting point-of-view) but in-universe it would have been quite a gamble for the Gideonites.

I believe that from a practical point of view they would have constructed the council chamber and the transporter room recreation on some kind of turntable that would have allowed them to have both at the exact same coordinates whenever required (they needed the fake transporter room on these coordinates to bring Kirk in and the council chamber to have one of their members beam up).

Which brings us back to the question whether the ship is an an actual physical replica or just a holodeck simulation.

If it is a physical replica, the question remains why the Gideonites didn't construct a turntable.
Surely, the entire operation and the expenses to reconstruct the whole ship depended on nobody noticing the different beam-down coordinates.

However, if they didn't have a choice (= space) then a holodeck simulation might have been all the space available to them.

But assuming the holodeck components can move, they could have had both the council chamber and the transporter room within that holodeck, too.

I fall back on my original statement, it's like "Total Recall".

Bob

 

[Mario de Monti]

Yes it is, isn´t it? Somehow that even makes it a bit more fun to watch the episode again. But I´m trying to decide whether to be disappointed about not being right or happy about not being wrong

But I guess we can agree, that at least production-wise nobody involved had a holographic simulation of the Enterprise in mind, but a physical replica. Right ... ?

Mario

 

[Robert Comsol]

But I guess we can agree, that at least production-wise nobody involved had a holographic simulation of the Enterprise in mind, but a physical replica. Right ... ?

I choose not to answer this question, unless something from some yet unread production memos shows up to suggest an alternative.

I still can't get over the viewport scene. So the council put dozens of citizens in front of the viewports (all over the ship replica) just to be there in case Kirk would ever decide to open one of these?

Bob

 

[Mario de Monti]

But I guess we can agree, that at least production-wise nobody involved had a holographic simulation of the Enterprise in mind, but a physical replica. Right ... ?

I choose not to answer this question, unless something from some yet unread production memos shows up to suggest an alternative.

"You choose not to answer?"

I still can't get over the viewport scene. So the council put dozens of citizens in front of the viewports (all over the ship replica) just to be there in case Kirk would ever decide to open one of these?

Why not? People attending car races (especially those on the cheap seats, where the cars are just whizzing by) always hope there´ll be something spectacular happening right in front of their noses. And even though it hardly ever does they come back time and time again
Seriously, life on Gideon sure is a living hell. Why not let people stand there and give them a little something to hope for in their hopelessness?

Mario

 

[Anwar]

It may have been mentioned before but if the Gideonites could recreate the Enterprise so well, why couldn't they just build ships of their own and settle other worlds so their world would be less crowded?

And heck, these guys were planning on unleashing a virus onto their OWN PEOPLE to start wiping them out. That's...pretty messed up.

 

[Robert Comsol]

^^ Well, the council claims they are desperate, BUT what's really, really messed up is that they reject contraception ("Life is sacred"), yet don't mind introducing a deadly disease.

With Kirk they never even discuss relocating parts of their population on other planets. Maybe they need a couple of thousands of bodies to overcome the issue how to feed their people. Soylent Green anyone?

Bob

 

[Mytran]

Sort of a mix of pro life (with regard to contraception) and pro choice (with regard to suicide). Weren't the council hoping to get volunteers to die, using Odona's great sacrifice as an example?

 

[Mario de Monti]

How can a disease be deadly to the Gideonites in the first place, when every organ (so presumably every cell) in their body regenerates itself?

 

[Timo]

So the council put dozens of citizens in front of the viewports (all over the ship replica) just to be there in case Kirk would ever decide to open one of these?

Well, as said, the people weren't staring through the viewport. They were staring through the entire wall - people on the edges of the porthole did not turn their eyes towards the opening, but kept staring straight ahead.

Which casts some doubt on them being there to spectate on the pair. They aren't even looking at them!

Perhaps that's how Gideonites sleep, standing upright (possibly on some sort of support), and the replica was built inside a dormitory?

It may have been mentioned before but if the Gideonites could recreate the Enterprise so well, why couldn't they just build ships of their own and settle other worlds so their world would be less crowded?

A friend of mine built a very convincing replica of an Airbus A310 cockpit, and "flies" that with MS Flight Simulator in a very realistic manner. It doesn't follow that he could carry me across the Atlantic!

Well, the council claims they are desperate, BUT what's really, really messed up is that they reject contraception ("Life is sacred"), yet don't mind introducing a deadly disease.

Which is probably the very point of the story: ridiculing the "life is sacred" claim in all its contexts for the inherent logical fallacy.

With Kirk they never even discuss relocating parts of their population on other planets.

They probably aren't keeping their planet absolutely closed to visitors and their scans merely in hopes of executing the plan of this episode - they must be a xenophobic lot to begin with. Emigration doesn't sound like something they would approve... And probably for the better, because they'd just export their problems to other worlds.

Of course, they could be gunned down anywhere else if they became a problem. Unless they are impervious to violent death, too. In which case they'd make a hefty profit in the cannon fodder business!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

If you're impervious to violent death, and you regenerate from most other things, and you're basically immortal...

...You're in a damn good position to start conquering the Galaxy...

 

[Nebusj]

It may have been mentioned before but if the Gideonites could recreate the Enterprise so well, why couldn't they just build ships of their own and settle other worlds so their world would be less crowded?

Well, for one, because unless they can send off something like a thousand starships every day without interruption they're still falling behind.

If we suppose there's a candidate planet, say, three months' away (a guess; the only travel time I can remember is from ``This Side Of Paradise'' it taking a year from Earth to get to that new world, but let's suppose Gideon is more lucky or less fussy), that means they'll need something like a 180-day pipeline of starships --- about 180,000 starships --- built before the project can even start. This is something of a challenge.

 

[Timo]

...So I guess the workable approach would be to operate a fleet of a dozen "colony ships" and load them with people who think they are going to a better place, then fly past the local sun with shields down, open the airlocks, and repeat...

Colonization of other worlds would be a cure for a population problem only if the price for a ticket aboard a colonizer were sterility past your first child, and the ticket would go to his or her grandchild. But colonization could set an example on how to live a more practical life, especially if, in true TOS fashion, Gideonites ceased to be superhuman once leaving their homeworld.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

It may have been mentioned before but if the Gideonites could recreate the Enterprise so well, why couldn't they just build ships of their own and settle other worlds so their world would be less crowded?

Well, for one, because unless they can send off something like a thousand starships every day without interruption they're still falling behind.

If we suppose there's a candidate planet, say, three months' away (a guess; the only travel time I can remember is from ``This Side Of Paradise'' it taking a year from Earth to get to that new world, but let's suppose Gideon is more lucky or less fussy), that means they'll need something like a 180-day pipeline of starships --- about 180,000 starships --- built before the project can even start. This is something of a challenge.

It's still better than killing your own people.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Sort of a mix of pro life (with regard to contraception) and pro choice (with regard to suicide). Weren't the council hoping to get volunteers to die, using Odona's great sacrifice as an example?

Yes, here's the dialogue:

"My daughter freely chose to do what she is doing, as the people of Gideon are free to choose."

KIRK: Her death is unnecessary. Even if she lives, her blood will provide the same serum you need as mine would.
HODIN: No, her death at so young an age will let the people know for certain that our lifecycle can be changed. It's the symbol that'll bring forth the dedicated young volunteers. The serum in their new blood will change Gideon, and it will once more be the paradise it was.

The really disturbing thing about this episode is that apparently this strategy will remain the one to solve the problem.

And what about Eminiar VII in "A Taste of Armageddon"? Certainly, to some extent, the disintegrator machines helped to control their over-population, too. But in this case Kirk interfered, on Gideon he doesn't mind.

Bob

 

[gottacook]

The really disturbing thing about this episode is that apparently this strategy will remain the one to solve the problem.

I'd forgotten that, but I couldn't possibly take it seriously enough to call it disturbing. The writer (and story editor, and perhaps Freiberger too) just didn't think it through, that's all. It's hardly the only third-season episode that was problematic logically.

 

[Timo]

Why would this be either disturbing or an example of inconsistent writing or lacking story logic? The heroes met an "inhuman" society where death was lacking, and restored it to that society. They have a definite modus operandi of "returning" humanlike qualities to the societies they meet, quite regardless of whether those qualities are positive by any standard. That dying now ensues is certainly a happy end in terms of general TOS story logic!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ToddPence]

"I got home last night to find that everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact duplicate." - STEVEN WRIGHT

 

[Robert Comsol]

He just packed his suitcase to leave for the airport, inhaled sleeping gas and woke up to find an exact duplicate of his apartment - but now in the Village (Number Six in "The [original] Prisoner")

Bob