Enterprise replica in Mark of Gideon

[Mytran]

Once they had the virus in his blood they could grow more in any case. So there had to be more going on than a simple (and hardly foolproof) way to distract the captain. Wasn't it mentioned at some stage that Odona's father had hoped Kirk would stay there with her - how does that mesh with her being the first volunteer for the deadly disease? Were the Gideonites hoping to secretly return Kirk to his ship once their supply of the virus had been assured? Y'know the old trick: Wait til he's asleep, transport him back to his bed on the Enterprise and hope he'd write the whole experience off as a dream?

Three different approaches, quite possibly proposed by three different council members, and since no-one could agree on which to follow they just went with them all?!

But it seems the Federation is bending over backwards to accommodate the eccentricity of the Gideonites, apparently in hopes of getting them to stop their clamshelling...if Gideon really knows how to stop Starfleet sensors, the planet might be technologically highly advanced. They have successfully maintained their isolationism despite there being less polite forces out there than the Federation; perhaps we should assume that it is a triviality for them to replicate starships or, if need be, shoot those down from orbit in order to enforce the isolation. Perhaps the considerable technological lead of Gideon (their insincere protestations and displays of ignorance aside) is what makes the Federation so accommodating here?

The fact that Gideon can feed and care for such an overblown population does suggest a sophisticated technology - the only issue appears to be the depressing nature of living on a crowded planet.
Gideon has to have had something appealing to the Federation; their "jealous tradition of isolation" hardly makes them suitable candidates in its own right. Or did the Feds really just want another (planet) feather in their cap?

 

[gottacook]

This is a fascinating topic, for anyone trying to fill (what are probably plotholes) with in-universe rationalizations.

Well, there's one thing not yet mentioned here that simply can't be rationalized: that Mr. Spock, Mr. Scott, et al., would have been fooled by the transposed last few digits of the transporter coordinates, i.e., 709 instead of 079. These are bridge officers on a Constitution-class starship. It is impossible for them all simultaneously to have had a brain fart of such magnitude as to cause them to be fooled, not properly record the coordinates in the first place, etc.

This all by itself is as absurd as the Gideons' ability to duplicate (really or virtually) the Enterprise so well as to fool its captain.

I did enjoy seeing the viewport, though, especially when I first saw this on NBC at age 12. (The third-season episodes were the only ones I saw first-run, and their script deficiencies weren't that apparent until I saw the earlier ones in reruns.)

 

[Jonas Grumby]

What was the purpose of the fake Enterprise anyway?

They already had Kirk so they could have just put him in prison for the rest of his life using his blood to kill billions. Its not like he was going to accept the fake Enterprise forever.

It's almost like the writer came up with a "hook" (a spooky, empty, duplicate Enterprise) and then just built a story around that without much regard for believability. (Maybe he thinks believability isn't necessary since it's "only science fiction" ).

 

[Timo]

People are different, so how can the machine gauge one person's "satisfaction" level over another?

This is not the threshold issue in the AC Clarke book, or the technique's possible other applications. If the computer is fast enough to adjust major simulation parameters (is it a redheaded giant or a blonde dwarf in front of you?) more quickly than a human can discern, it is by default powerful enough to competently analyze the body language of any arbitrary person after viewing a very small sample.

Consider Kirk's situation—his body language isn't likely to show a relaxed acceptance of the environment.

Nothing as crude would be involved; body language can be read more accurately than that, and annoyance at the color or shape of a particular GNDN pipe discerned from the whole. It's just a matter of computing power.

Is the computer going to keep randomly switching them around until it hits "queen to king's level one" and Kirk relaxes?

Well, basically, yes. Those and a billion other parameters, quite literally. And "relaxing" wouldn't be anything like Kirk letting his shoulders drop, an act that might take as long as half a second - it would be read far more quickly from subtler and more fleeting cues in Kirk's actions (twitching of the eye and the like).

Well, there's one thing not yet mentioned here that simply can't be rationalized: that Mr. Spock, Mr. Scott, et al., would have been fooled by the transposed last few digits of the transporter coordinates, i.e., 709 instead of 079. These are bridge officers on a Constitution-class starship. It is impossible for them all simultaneously to have had a brain fart of such magnitude as to cause them to be fooled, not properly record the coordinates in the first place, etc.

Remember what happened exactly, though. The ship was forbidden from scanning anything, meaning the transporter would have to be run on a rather exceptional "manual" mode - this is the only time in the show that transporter coordinates are entered digit by digit, after all. The first time around, Uhura receives them and pipes them down for Spock to use at the transporter console. The only person in the transporter room in addition to Spock is Kirk.

Then Hodin confirms the coordinates, with Chekov taking note and Spock, Sulu and Uhura also overhearing.

However, the second time, it's Scotty who gets to hear the coordinates. He is in the transporter room, and we don't explicitly see Uhura eavesdropping, nor piping it to Spock, the bridge, the general PA system or anything. (With voiceovers, we never can really tell who is listening, besides the audience.)

So nobody really knows there are two sets of coordinates. It is only when Spock begins suspecting that the comparison is made, revealing the fact.

Oh, Uhura probably did listen in. But it should be a natural assumption that massive amounts of information flow through her earpiece all the time, and blaming her for not noticing a discrepancy here is not in the realm of fair. Nor should we expect our heroes to make and compare records on such a matter routinely, when the mode of operations is as far from routine as it can get.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

In regards to Gideon being able to feed their population, and what interest the Federation/Star Fleet may have in the planet, we can only speculate from the episode itself. There is no canon reason, just the state of affairs. But the deleted backstory lends itself to informing both the Gideonites desire for isolation, and the Federation's interest.

Put simply, the earlier draft of the script that James Blish had access to made much of the healing abilities of the native Gideonites. Blish included a scene where Odona cut off her own finger with a laser scalpel in Sickbay, and Kirk watched, stunned, as it grew back completely, in a matter of seconds. I don't know about you, I think the Federation would be highly interested in such recuperative abilities.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

My favorite aspect of the episode is the diplomatic sparring between Spock and Hodin. There's also a relatively rare shot of Spock speaking from the point of view of the monitor on Gideon:



Although this isn't exactly the angle I'd imagine he'd be seen from. Where is exactly is that magic floating camera on the bridge, anyway?

Then there's always the Spock/Hodin conversations' build-up to this classic moment:

 

[Push The Button]

My favorite aspect of the episode is the diplomatic sparring between Spock and Hodin. There's also a relatively rare shot of Spock speaking from the point of view of the monitor on Gideon:



Although this isn't exactly the angle I'd imagine he'd be seen from. Where is exactly is that magic floating camera on the bridge, anyway?

Then there's always the Spock/Hodin conversations' build-up to this classic moment:

Not the first time that we see "picturephone" footage that pans, zooms, or abruptly jumps like the middle photo above, when really none of that should be happening. Another example can be found in Balance of Terror, when Spock taps into the video feed from the bridge of the Romulan ship, where we see a zoom into a nice closeup of their commander's face. Did Spock figure out how to hack into their camera controls remotely?

 

[Robert Comsol]

Put simply, the earlier draft of the script that James Blish had access to made much of the healing abilities of the native Gideonites. Blish included a scene where Odona cut off her own finger with a laser scalpel in Sickbay, and Kirk watched, stunned, as it grew back completely, in a matter of seconds. I don't know about you, I think the Federation would be highly interested in such recuperative abilities.

Interesting detail which I think raises an interesting question the context of the final episode:

KIRK: Then why haven't you introduced any of the new techniques to sterilise men and women?
HODIN: Every organ renews itself. It would be impossible.

HODIN: But you see, the people of Gideon have always believed that life is sacred. That the love of life is the greatest gift. That is the one unshakable truth of Gideon. And this overwhelming love of life has developed our regenerative capacity and our great longevity.

ODONA: Because there are so many of us. So many. There is no place, no street, no house, no garden, no beach, no mountain that is not filled with people. Each one of us would kill in order to find a place alone to himself. They would willingly die for it, if they could.

Do the people of Gideon really not kill each other because life is sacred or have they just given up on trying (because of the organ renewal nobody can really get killed).

@ Push The Button
IIRC what we saw in BoT was just a part of the video message Decius sent to the Praetor which the Enterprise intercepted. I'm pretty certain the first part featured footage how the Earth outpost was destroyed, next Decius reported / saluted and the Commander expressed satisfaction.

Only at the end do both commanders see each other / establish a visual ship-to-ship communication.

Bob

 

[Timo]

Not the first time that we see "picturephone" footage that pans, zooms, or abruptly jumps like the middle photo above, when really none of that should be happening.

No, it shouldn't - but that's different from saying it couldn't. Naturally, it would be technologically fairly simple to tell the visual sensor in your picturephone to make dramatic edits. It's not particularly demanding AI to insert drama to visuals, as drama is formulaic; similarly, computers today can fairly effortlessly compose in the style of a given human composer.

Why our heroes would wish to see Hodin's hand throwing the switch, or why Hodin would wish the heroes to see this, we don't know. But it should be technologically quite possible. Surely both of the facilities here have multiple cameras or other visual sensors in operation - especially as we know from "Court Martial" that multi-angle visual records are being kept on all bridge activity.

(Then again, "The Menagerie" shows our heroes exclaiming that this very sort of detailed visual recording is unheard of, establishing that the visuals they are seeing must be evil Talosian trickery... But perhaps the difference there is that "The Menagerie" pretends to be raw feed, which normally isn't dramatically edited, while the "Court Martial" feed is already assumed to have been dramatically edited by the prosecution and thus raises no eyebrows?)

Another example can be found in Balance of Terror, when Spock taps into the video feed from the bridge of the Romulan ship, where we see a zoom into a nice closeup of their commander's face. Did Spock figure out how to hack into their camera controls remotely?

I don't get this one. Once Spock has the imagery, isn't he free to do as much zooming on it as he pleases? Zooming in or out is something you can trivially do on visual feed, especially if it has sufficient resolution. Panning is also trivially possible if you only pan a small "keyhole" over the entirety of the feed. You don't have to do anything to the source of the feed there, such as zoom with the original camera or tell it to turn left or right.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Push The Button]

Not the first time that we see "picturephone" footage that pans, zooms, or abruptly jumps like the middle photo above, when really none of that should be happening.

No, it shouldn't - but that's different from saying it couldn't. Naturally, it would be technologically fairly simple to tell the visual sensor in your picturephone to make dramatic edits. It's not particularly demanding AI to insert drama to visuals, as drama is formulaic; similarly, computers today can fairly effortlessly compose in the style of a given human composer.

Why our heroes would wish to see Hodin's hand throwing the switch, or why Hodin would wish the heroes to see this, we don't know. But it should be technologically quite possible. Surely both of the facilities here have multiple cameras or other visual sensors in operation - especially as we know from "Court Martial" that multi-angle visual records are being kept on all bridge activity.

(Then again, "The Menagerie" shows our heroes exclaiming that this very sort of detailed visual recording is unheard of, establishing that the visuals they are seeing must be evil Talosian trickery... But perhaps the difference there is that "The Menagerie" pretends to be raw feed, which normally isn't dramatically edited, while the "Court Martial" feed is already assumed to have been dramatically edited by the prosecution and thus raises no eyebrows?)

Another example can be found in Balance of Terror, when Spock taps into the video feed from the bridge of the Romulan ship, where we see a zoom into a nice closeup of their commander's face. Did Spock figure out how to hack into their camera controls remotely?

I don't get this one. Once Spock has the imagery, isn't he free to do as much zooming on it as he pleases? Zooming in or out is something you can trivially do on visual feed, especially if it has sufficient resolution. Panning is also trivially possible if you only pan a small "keyhole" over the entirety of the feed. You don't have to do anything to the source of the feed there, such as zoom with the original camera or tell it to turn left or right.

Timo Saloniemi

My point was that there was obviously a disconnect between when the director and cinematographer shot the footage, and when the editors decided to insert the footage into viewscreens later on. These examples seem to have been shot without the knowledge of how they would be used later. TNG was a lot better about this sort of thing, IIRC.

 

[Timo]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

Personally, though, I think that if "visiphones" ever are going to become really popular, they must come with an automated dramatic editing application. Staring at somebody's face and nothing but the face is frighteningly dull, and virtually never happens in face-to-face conversation...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ZapBrannigan]

My point was that there was obviously a disconnect between when the director and cinematographer shot the footage, and when the editors decided to insert the footage into viewscreens later on. These examples seem to have been shot without the knowledge of how they would be used later. TNG was a lot better about this sort of thing, IIRC.

There was a complete disconnect between director and film editor on "Is There in Truth no Beauty," and the director is still annoyed about it.

http://senensky.com/is-there-in-truth-no-beauty/

The formal dinner and the concluding Transporter Room scenes were both botched in post by the editor, listed as Fabien Tordjmann. It looks like he didn't read or didn't understand the script.

 

[Timo]

I don't really get most of the objections there. Say, Jones looking at an opened Kollos box when saying "I must know!" is what the drama clearly calls for - the mystery of how Jones can do this without the protective goggles must be introduced here. Did the director not understand the script?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't really get most of the objections there. Say, Jones looking at an opened Kollos box when saying "I must know!" is what the drama clearly calls for - the mystery of how Jones can do this without the protective goggles must be introduced here. Did the director not understand the script?

Timo Saloniemi

Please. Ralph Senensky understood the script.

The film editor put in a view of Kollos' box when Miranda sensed that someone at the table wanted to commit murder. That was wrong, because later when she knew it was Larry, she had no idea whom he wanted to kill. She should not have seen Kollos' box in her telepathic vision at dinner. I thought that for years, and then Senensky's blog came along and he thought so, too.

 

[Timo]

I don't agree - the man sounds both petty and misguided.

Not having Jones stare at the opened box in the "I must know!" scene would remove much of the mystery, as the audience needs to be let in on Jones being immune at as early a story point as possible. And Kollos must be in her mind all the time... We already know that Jones isn't able to assign sources to her insights, so it's perfectly fine to give the audience false clues as to which one of the guest stars might be the villain.

Not that the editing job would be particularly artistic, smooth or enthralling. But it furthers the plot, while Senensky's version would be grossly inferior from the dramatic viewpoint.

And all this bickering because he didn't like the visual effect of Kollos...? What did he think Star Trek was about?

(The complaint about Kirk remaining in the transporter room, seemingly without a visor, is valid, of course. Then again, the bridge scene established that merely not having a line of sight to a Medusan would be protection enough, so Kirk could have turned away, plain and simple. But that's rationalizing an editing error, whereas the other points appear to involve an editor compensating for the shortcomings of the director!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ToddPence]

Here's another item that illustrates how elaborate and complex the Gideonite's scheme was. They trick the Enterprise crew by giving fake coordinates, which are the actual coordinates of their government offices, but with two of the digits transposed with each other. Then, later when they give coordinates to beam one of their own aboard the Enterprise, they give the real coordinates. (Fortunately for Hodin, both Spock and Scotty are having an off day and neither notice this discrepancy at first.)
What that means is this. The Gideonites had to make sure to build their Enterprise in the exact location so that their fake transporter room matched up exactly with the bogus coordinates they gave for the captain's beamdown at the beginning of the story. And they had to make sure that that spot was at a place that was almost exactly the location of their offices, with just two digits different.

I've never understood why the instant it is discovered Kirk is missing, nobody thinks of the obvious step one thing and tries contacting him on his communicator.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Here's another item that illustrates how elaborate and complex the Gideonite's scheme was. ....

I'd sort of noticed that before, but never really gave it much of any thought, but seeing you spell it out like that really highlights what a crowned king of super-elaborate schemes it was! It's almost like something you'd have seen in a Gold Key Star Trek comic book!

One thing I liked was the scene where Kirk supposedly changes the speed of the (fake) ship. Odona says "It feels the same." and Kirk replies with "Of course it does...". It sort of silences a scientific question before it's even asked, and makes it sound matter-of-fact and believable. It's like reverse-technobabble of the best kind.

 

[Mario de Monti]

What that means is this. The Gideonites had to make sure to build their Enterprise in the exact location so that their fake transporter room matched up exactly with the bogus coordinates they gave for the captain's beamdown at the beginning of the story. And they had to make sure that that spot was at a place that was almost exactly the location of their offices, with just two digits different.

Interesting point that supports a real physical replica, IMO. I guess the replica was built underground, right beneath the government building - hence the similar coordinates.
Although one might argue that a holographic transporter room could also have been placed at these coordinates ...

BTW, great that someone still feels like talking about the actual topic of this thread

 

[Timo]

Sorry about that...

I wonder if those coordinates are standard Starfleet ones, or Gideonite ones. That is, Gideonites may well think in decimal terms (humanlike hands and all), so their strings of numbers would not be mangled in translation and the number transposition trick would work easily enough. OTOH, if these are Starfleet coordinates, then there's no translation involved and the risk is zero, but it further demonstrates how much the Gideonites knew about Starfleet when Starfleet knew so little (or told Kirk so little).

I don't see the coordinate thing being particularly "elaborate" in relation to the overall complexity of the project either way. But if the coordinates are native Gideon ones, then the Gideonites can mold them to their liking with Starfleet none the wiser, inserting all sorts of da Vinci code silliness because the coordinate system is theirs to define.

The Gideonites goofed on having their representative beam up from the Council Closet, though. Why not tell Spock to beam him up from some other facility with completely different coordinates and no relation to the place where Kirk was supposed to have landed? There would be no need to use two sets of coordinates for the "Council Closet", then. It's not as if Spock would make a plausible case of the transporter only revealing its secrets and malfunction modes when using the one specific coordinate set, while Hodin could well make the case for not wanting to use the exalted Council Closet for silly and potentially dangerous experiments until Spock has figured out exactly what went wrong.

I've never understood why the instant it is discovered Kirk is missing, nobody thinks of the obvious step one thing and tries contacting him on his communicator.

Good point. But I guess there are three responses, from obvious to complicated:

1) Spock did hail Kirk immediately, and repeatedly. For up to ten minutes. We just didn't see that, because the camera was on Kirk! (Or more exactly off for the nine minutes Kirk was unconscious, then on Kirk for a minute, until we returned to Spock and saw him no longer hailing. Kirk's communications gear must in any case have been deactivated, replaced by fakes, whatever.)

2) Surely the first thing Gideonites would ban, in addition to sensor sweeps, would be direct communication along channels not explicitly sanctioned by the Council. Spock would just be polite, then, by not starting out with an agreement violation.

3) OTOH, perhaps sensor use is prevented not by a "ban", but by technological or natural obstacles, ones that also are expected to prevent communication. the wording is unclear: Kirk's log refers to "refused" surveillance by sensors, while Spock later says the planet is "shielded". My bet would be that the Gideonites are indeed actively camouflaging their planet with jammers, and

a) Spock is mistaken about these also blocking communications or
b) the jammers are turned off once Kirk is deprived of his communicator, thus allowing Spock to contact the real ship during his sortie into the replica

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mario de Monti]

Sorry about that...

You´re forgiven

I wonder if those coordinates are standard Starfleet ones, or Gideonite ones. That is, Gideonites may well think in decimal terms (humanlike hands and all), so their strings of numbers would not be mangled in translation and the number transposition trick would work easily enough. OTOH, if these are Starfleet coordinates, then there's no translation involved and the risk is zero, but it further demonstrates how much the Gideonites knew about Starfleet when Starfleet knew so little (or told Kirk so little).

I don't see the coordinate thing being particularly "elaborate" in relation to the overall complexity of the project either way. But if the coordinates are native Gideon ones, then the Gideonites can mold them to their liking with Starfleet none the wiser, inserting all sorts of da Vinci code silliness because the coordinate system is theirs to define.

I think it doesn´t make a difference whether these were Gideonite or Starfleet coordinates, because they were input into the transporter console (and thus into the computer) and so the crew could easily have calculated the relative distance between the two beam-down locations. The point is, they didn´t notice the coordinates were different so it´s rather moot anyway.