Enterprise..Raw

[RobertScorpio]

I don't post often here in the ENTERPRISE forum. I kind of drifted away from Enterprise midway through season one...then I came back at the mid point of season-4.

I still think, to this day, Enterprise had a good concept. The first starship in space, and exploring the strange new worlds and the feeling of awe and wonder that comes with it..

But I think, for me, where Enterprise went off track is when the crew became just another STAR TREK crew. I think they lost that since of 'awe' that I wanted to see more of. Buy by the end you could have interchanged them with their TNG or DS9 or Voyager counterparts and never would have known the difference....in essence, Enterprise lost it's 'virginity' too early..

Rob
scorpio

 

[SFRabid]

I thougt that happened in episode 1 when they got involved with Klingons.

 

[commodore64]

Welcome to the forum. Nice comments, and despite loving ENT, I share them.
To me, Enterprise was always the series that could've been exceptional, but kept falling short due to - what felt like - self-inflicted wounds: not enough time and energy spent on characters, not enough care given to weaving in TOS in the right ways, too much focus on sex (sex without substance), mistreatment of female characters, lack of affection for a Vulcan, etc.

ENT had some ups and downs. For some reason, possibly which defies explanation, the show really struck a chord with me more than nearly any version of ST other than TOS (which is still my favorite). And yet, I spend waaay more time here than in the TOS forum. Maybe I've discussed everything there is to discuss on TOS. With ENT, it hasn't been discussed (sometimes what feels like in the right ways) with care given to the right stuff.

 

[Anna Yolei]

But I think, for me, where Enterprise went off track is when the crew became just another STAR TREK crew.

There are many that would argue that happened about fifteen minutes into the first episode.

But a lot of what Commie says, I agree with. Enterprise as a prequel could have rocked, but the producers/network/writers wanted to focus on other things that dragged the story down a lot.

 

[JiNX-01]

First up, I love Enterprise. But I agree that there were elements of the show that I think removed the sense that these people were pioneers.

Temporal cold war: This was a real problem for me. If Daniels wasn't helping out (Shockwave) it was Future Guy (The Expanse). We needed to see this crew solve (or fail to solve) their own problems without the advantage of help from the future.

Phlox: Having SuperDoctor on the ship took away the element of danger (No one died until season 3!). He should have been human with Earth-based training. So when a crew member gets sick after exposure to an alien environment, he's going to be stumped. He's going to have problems fixing things. He's not going to be able to cure a alien species' genetic plague. (For heaven's sake, McCoy wasn't even certain what to do for Sarek when he needed surgery. And look much trouble they had figuring out what to do for the plague on Miri's planet).

T'Pol: She should not have been made science officer, much less first officer. And she certainly shouldn't have arrived with a big ol' database of star systems, alien species, etc. (As an aside, the potential for conflict would have been so much better if she had been initially assigned to observe their first mission, and then have her assigned to remain on board after proving essential to the success of that mission (the VHC's motive is to keep an eye on Archer and Co). The crew doesn't want her there and she doesn't want to be there. Eventually she would find a home aboard Enterprise, but it would take a lot more than a few episodes).

Travis: I think it would have made more sense for him to be security chief. He's built for the job and his familiarity with some alien species would have prepared him for dealing with all kinds. And I think it's odd that the tactical officer is also sec-chief. How many times was Enterprise attacked from within and without simultaneously? Splitting that job would make sense and give the writers something to work with for a character who should have been a lot more interesting that he was.

The ship: I love the NX-01. But when it was damaged, I think they should have limped along. Maybe they'd come across help. Maybe not. Most of the time, they were on their own.

 

[commodore64]

I agre with many of your comments, with minor qualms, Jinx, except this one:

T'Pol: She should not have been made science officer, much less first officer. And she certainly shouldn't have arrived with a big ol' database of star systems, alien species, etc. (As an aside, the potential for conflict would have been so much better if she had been initially assigned to observe their first mission, and then have her assigned to remain on board after proving essential to the success of that mission (the VHC's motive is to keep an eye on Archer and Co). The crew doesn't want her there and she doesn't want to be there. Eventually she would find a home aboard Enterprise, but it would take a lot more than a few episodes).

I liked T'Pol as first officer and science officer. I think it did a few things:
* set up immediate conflict with Archer - he doesn't like Vulcans and had already hand-picked his second in command
* reminded us of Spock (awww, Spock)
* provided a first -- a female Vulcan main character

I also think it did take many episodes for them to trust her. Much of the time it was two steps forward, two steps back. Even Trip in Expanse (at the very end of second season) called T'Pol's views of non-interference crap. It seemed to me the crew was always finding how much they trusted and liked her, which surprised them. And I think vice-versa. The reason I like Fallen Hero, for example, was that she begins to know enough about the crew to appeal to Archer's sense of compassion -- something she sees and begins to understand by this point -- not his logic.

Where they failed with T'Pol in my opinion was focusing on the following:
* Making sure she was hot; the actress is beautiful, they shouldn't have worried.
* Not allowing her to shine as a Vulcan and follow the culture of Vulcan that's well ... cool and alien! She performed hardly any neck pinching, only one mind meld, etc. More over, she made the transformation to human too quickly and never really found balance between logic and emotion. In my opinion T'Pol is really the only failed character by the end of season 4.
* Not focusing on building her character, but more interested in shock and sex. T'Pol took drugs to be more human and have a relationship. WTF?! I don't even think Sybok would've done this. The problem with this concept is it makes T'Pol look incredibly silly and selfish, a huge departure from her sage-like role in seasons 1 and 2. In addition, I loved the interplay with T'Pol when relationships weren't overt. Again, the actress is beautiful and on a ship with some incredibly handsome actors. Already that makes for potential romance. Focusing on friendship, where people care about each other (a la TOS), should've been priority number 1. The other stuff can be implied, suggested, etc. without damaging characters. And if they had to have a romance, they should've thought it out more carefully.

In seasons 1 and 2, T'Pol was my favorite character. By season 4, I hardly recognized her. No longer the smart and capable Vulcan, she seemed lost and adrift. Too bad. I think of all the characters on Ent, she had the most potential.

 

[JiNX-01]

I agre with many of your comments, with minor qualms, Jinx, except this one:

T'Pol: She should not have been made science officer, much less first officer. And she certainly shouldn't have arrived with a big ol' database of star systems, alien species, etc. (As an aside, the potential for conflict would have been so much better if she had been initially assigned to observe their first mission, and then have her assigned to remain on board after proving essential to the success of that mission (the VHC's motive is to keep an eye on Archer and Co). The crew doesn't want her there and she doesn't want to be there. Eventually she would find a home aboard Enterprise, but it would take a lot more than a few episodes).

I liked T'Pol as first officer and science officer. I think it did a few things:
* set up immediate conflict with Archer - he doesn't like Vulcans and had already hand-picked his second in command

Actually, once he asked her to stay on board -- and she agreed -- his perogative to distrust her and ignore her counsel went right out the airlock. As far as I was concerned, the "conflict" was contrived and phony. If T'Pol's permanent posting to Enterprise had been shoved down his throat and hers, the conflict would have been credible.

* reminded us of Spock (awww, Spock)

Too much, IMO. I frankly didn't need the ham-handed "Look! Look! We're just like TOS, except the black character is driving and the Asian character is answering the phone!")

I also think it did take many episodes for them to trust her. Much of the time it was two steps forward, two steps back. Even Trip in Expanse (at the very end of second season) called T'Pol's views of non-interference crap.

Yes he did. But he also counseled Archer as far back as Desert Crossing -- after Zobral asked for help -- that they should just leave. He also expressed reservations to Archer about getting involved in Marauders. So, I would argue that Trip's remarks in The Expanse were colored by the vaporization of his sister.

It seemed to me the crew was always finding how much they trusted and liked her, which surprised them. And I think vice-versa.

The crew's reactions are of less interest to me than Archer's behavior. He's the one who asked her to stay. And then dismissed her recommendations. Kirk listened to Spock, even if he didn't always follow his advice.

The reason I like Fallen Hero, for example, was that she begins to know enough about the crew to appeal to Archer's sense of compassion -- something she sees and begins to understand by this point -- not his logic.

I didn't recall it playing out that way so I rewatched the scene:

T: She also told me that if we return her to Mazar, she'll be killed.
A: By who?
T: She didn't tell me.
A: But you believed her.
T: Yes.
A: Why?
T: I can't accept that she'd sacrifice a lifetime of accomplishment with an act of criminal misconduct.
A: It happens all the time.
T: Not to her. We must take her to the Shuran.
A: You're asking me to put the lives of everyone on board in jeopardy based on your talking to this woman for a couple of hours.
T: (pauses) Captain. (He turns to face T'Pol) Since I've served aboard Enterprise, I've never asked you for anything. I'm asking for this now. Don't return the ambassador to Mazar. Please. (Archer pauses, nods slightly) Thank you.

While Archer does agree to protect V'Lar, he clearly doesn't do it for her. He does it for T'Pol. Which is a nice reflection on the development of their friendship, but also makes my point that the so-called conflict between them is evaporating too quickly in light of Archer's long history of deeply held distrust of Vulcans.

Imagine how much more effective this scene might have been if she was still the outsider.

Where they failed with T'Pol in my opinion was focusing on the following:
* Making sure she was hot; the actress is beautiful, they shouldn't have worried.

Well, it might have worked if male Vulcans had also been strutting around in catsuits that left nothing to the imagination.

* Not allowing her to shine as a Vulcan and follow the culture of Vulcan that's well ... cool and alien! She performed hardly any neck pinching, only one mind meld, etc.

I don't mind so much the absence of neck pinches and mind meld.

You mentioned Spock. I always found it so affecting when his emotions came to the surface because it was so important to him to be in control.
When I learned there was going to be a female Vulcan on ENT, I was looking forward to seeing how they would have her handle the emotional control without making her seem like that cold *itch T'Pring.
Unfortunately, we never got to find out.
As Keckler noted in her recap of Broken Bow:
T'Pol sniffs, wrinkling up her pert little nose, and catches sight of Porthos. She swings her gaze back to Cpt. Quantum, who asks, "Is there a problem?" "No, Sir," T'Pol tells him in a tone so full of attitude you could feed it to an amoeba and turn it into a catwalk-sashaying supermodel.

And later:
"Your superiors don't think we can flush a toilet without one of you to assist us," Cpt. Quantum says, once again raising the question of how Starfleet officers go to the bathroom in outer space. Vacuum attachments, still? Maybe Glark's transporter idea? Or perhaps they just hang their tushes out a spacelock and let go. Talk about polluting outer space -- they'd have to fly through all that. And now we're getting into a weird area. Back to the Vulcan, who's not even Vulcan enough to keep emotion out of her voice as she bites out to Cpt. Quantum that she didn't ask to be assigned to this mission: "And you can be certain, Captain, that when this mission's over I'll be as pleased to leave this ship as you will be to have me go."

I'm with Keckler.

More over, she made the transformation to human too quickly...

She should never have made the transformation to human.

 

[angie]

Well said Scorpio!! I hesitated even tuning in initially because I had discovered Farscape which is as far from Trek as you can get but the fact that they weren't a perfect just another day in space crew got me watching. I also liked the uneasy alliance between Archer and T'Pol.

 

[commodore64]

Actually, once he asked her to stay on board -- and she agreed -- his perogative to distrust her and ignore her counsel went right out the airlock. As far as I was concerned, the "conflict" was contrived and phony. If T'Pol's permanent posting to Enterprise had been shoved down his throat and hers, the conflict would have been credible.

Didn't stop them from having conflict in the first season in pretty much every episode. I think Andorian Incident summed it up pretty well: where do your loyalties lie? And even after that, the crew still eavesdropped on her communications with Vulcan (Breaking the Ice), etc. I saw Fallen Hero as a turning point -- both in Archer's acceptance of T'Pol and his trust in her as well as T'Pol's ability to appeal to his emotions.

I thought that was set up well and handled not too shabbily.

Too much, IMO. I frankly didn't need the ham-handed "Look! Look! We're just like TOS, except the black character is driving and the Asian character is answering the phone!")

I think that's what I mean about weak female characters in my criticisms. Hoshi could've been interesting, but unlike Joss Whedon, our writers had a hard time pining down how to make female characters interesting and hot at the same time. They shouldn't have worried about hot, imo.

So, I would argue that Trip's remarks (re: "T'Pol's non-interference crap") in The Expanse were colored by the vaporization of his sister.

Considering Cogenitor was very recent, I'm not so sure. Cogenitor proved to me Trip doesn't get non-interference or why it's important yet, which is why he took on Charlie's plight and she ended up committing suicide.

The crew's reactions are of less interest to me than Archer's behavior. He's the one who asked her to stay. And then dismissed her recommendations. Kirk listened to Spock, even if he didn't always follow his advice.

Vulcan didn't seem like they'd let him continue without her. She was assigned. Archer asking advice from Trip shifts to T'Pol over time. In fact, I think it shifts after ANIS.

T: She also told me that if we return her to Mazar, she'll be killed.
A: By who?
T: She didn't tell me.
A: But you believed her.
T: Yes.
A: Why?
T: I can't accept that she'd sacrifice a lifetime of accomplishment with an act of criminal misconduct.
A: It happens all the time.
T: Not to her. We must take her to the Shuran.
A: You're asking me to put the lives of everyone on board in jeopardy based on your talking to this woman for a couple of hours.
T: (pauses) Captain. (He turns to face T'Pol) Since I've served aboard Enterprise, I've never asked you for anything. I'm asking for this now. Don't return the ambassador to Mazar. Please. (Archer pauses, nods slightly) Thank you.

While Archer does agree to protect V'Lar, he clearly doesn't do it for her.

I bolded the part I thought was what backed up my point: he was swayed by an emotional appeal to his compassion: I have never asked you for anything. I'm asking for this now.

He does it for T'Pol. Which is a nice reflection on the development of their friendship, but also makes my point that the so-called conflict between them is evaporating too quickly in light of Archer's long history of deeply held distrust of Vulcans.

Yes, he does it for T'Pol. But in the course of the episode, he also has more respect for V'Lar. Archer, in my mind, is weeding out "good Vulcans" from "bad Vulcans." He's got more to learn as we see in later episodes.

Point taken in general. I actually think it's well-timed. It's taken him an entire year to develop trust. And even though they have trust, they don't have equality. I am more disappointed that instead of reaching equality, Archer stops asking for her advice and surpasses her -- as we see in season 4. What would've been a great arc would've been:
* Archer doesn't want her advice - season 1. Check!
* Archer begins to listen to her advice and trust her - season 2. Check!
* Archer makes decisions contrary to T'Pol, using gut instinct more often or his own logic. Check!
* Archer realizes T'Pol's strengths and knows when to ask for her advice and T'Pol recognizes when to ask for Archer's. NO CHECK!

Imagine how much more effective this scene might have been if she was still the outsider.

Totally disagree. There's without purpose conflict and with purpose conflict. I'm pro "with purpose conflict." Here are two examples:

BSG has forced conflict. (Oh no - no one is brawling in this episode - let's make Tigh and Adama punch it out.) I like the show, but I get tired of people angry at each other for no reason ... every episode. Conflict is appropriate when it serves a purpose. Otherwise, like with BSG, it's just spectacle: a neat, people are punching it out.

I hated Voyager because the conflict was resolved in the first show. It's too bad, the conflict served a purpose: how can we get along and find our home way?

I never felt that ENT rushed to resolve conflict. I can safely say that Archer and T'Pol had mistrust until the very end of season 1. Even if Archer asked her to stick around, he didn't immediately trust everything she had to say. On the contrary, even in Strange New World the audience was concerned Archer would listen to Trip and that T'Pol would be dead meat. It took Archer the entire episode to make that decision, mostly after he heard his friend start spouting some pretty weird stuff. And as I indicated previously, even after Andorian Incident, he still has her communications bugged.

Besides, season 1 is usually when characters begin to fit in: Farscape and Firefly immediately come to mind.

Well, it might have worked if male Vulcans had also been strutting around in catsuits that left nothing to the imagination.

Heee!

You mentioned Spock. I always found it so affecting when his emotions came to the surface because it was so important to him to be in control.

Exactly. He rarely let his emotions come to the surface and was self-reliant.

When I learned there was going to be a female Vulcan on ENT, I was looking forward to seeing how they would have her handle the emotional control without making her seem like that cold *itch T'Pring.
Unfortunately, we never got to find out.

I liked T'Pring. Logical.

I think T'Pol has more softness than T'Pring though -- which is why she appeals to the crew's emotions sometimes. Season 2 T'Pol, I would argue, was awesome ... minus missing some of the self-reliance she should've had. I felt like in parts of season 3 and 4, the ears were an illusion: she was human. I guess that's what I'm talking about.

I always knew that T'Pol would accept emotion, but I never expected her to not only embrace it but show emotion often herself.

Why make an alien only to quickly make them "human"? Data took many years before he began to feel emotion. Spock let his emotions out in fits and spurts only to repress them again.

T'Pol would've fared better if they'd done the same to her. Maybe if her character was a man, they would've succeeded.

Good discussion.

 

[angie]

I don't think they screwed T'Pol up until season 3 when seemed to forget she was a Vulcan. We got glimmers of the real T'Pol thankfully and I had hoped after the Vulcan Trilogy in season 4 we would see her return. Sadly we again only got glimpses.