Enterprise E

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Starfleet took the Titan and gave it such a thorough refit that it doesn't look anything like it did, but does look a lot like a 100+ year old ship scaled up to twice the size. Then they changed the registry, even though it's supposed to be the same vessel (with old warp engines and Riker's music still on the hard drive). But they didn't give it a different number, instead they went with Starfleet's tradition for the most historically important and legendary vessels, and gave it a -A, showing that the Titan NCC-80102 will be remembered and respected for generations.

Then they changed the name and number to Enterprise NCC-1701-G.

Honestly, I think Starfleet was drunk.

I think Starfleet did what Ford did with their Mustang line.

The original Ford Mustang (1st Gen) was a classic & a hit with their customer base.

The modern Ford Mustang (7th Gen) is a refinement of the classic design.

They went back to the general stylings of yester year, modernized it for the target audience they intended to satisfy.

If that mean making a throw-back design to legendary ships of yester year with a modern touch, they accomplished it.

---

To be fair, I do like the Enterprise-E design. But I think I like it more because it was such a radical departure from the Enterprise which preceded it, which would make sense based on the advances in technology from the Galaxy family of ships, which then influenced other newer classes such as the Nova, Prometheus, and Intrepid. This is also why I don't like the STO/now-canon Enterprise-F, because there's just minimal differences between it and the Sovereign class that came before it. I was hoping that a future show would have depicted the Enterprise-F as a completely different design instead of the STO version, but not only did I get the exact opposite of what I wanted, I ended up getting an even worse design for the ship that came after it. Oh, well. Maybe the Enterprise-H will make me happier.

What is it about the STO Enterprise-F that you don't like?

 

[Dukhat]

If that mean making a throw-back design to legendary ships of yester year with a modern touch, they accomplished it.

Except those cars weren't scaled up to four times the size of the originals.

What is it about the STO Enterprise-F that you don't like?

Keeping in mind that it was just the winner of a non-canon video game contest and not designed by a production person for the show, the main problem with the design (and most of the others from that contest) was that it didn't really look all that different from the ship that came before it. I mean, I see the minimal changes, but they're not enough. The Enterprise-B did not look like the Enterprise-A, the Enterprise-C did not look like the Enterprise-B, the Enterprise-D did not look like the Enterprise-C, and the Enterprise-E did not look like the Enterprise-D. In each case there were clear design changes which denoted a specific design era, and that nobody would ever mistake one class for another. In the case of the Ent-F, it just looked like they took a Sovereign and an Intrepid and mated them together. And from a distance, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the Odyssey class from the Sovereign class.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Except those cars weren't scaled up to four times the size of the originals.

But cars have to operate on roads with Federally Regulated "Vehicle: Length, Width, & Height Restrictions" along with target audience & performance specs.
You can't really increase their sizes by very much.

When you're designing a vessel for the vacuum of space, the size restrictions don't really matter.
As long as you include what is necessary to meet the Performance & Operational targets, you can scale it up as needed.

Keeping in mind that it was just the winner of a non-canon video game contest and not designed by a production person for the show, the main problem with the design (and most of the others from that contest) was that it didn't really look all that different from the ship that came before it. I mean, I see the minimal changes, but they're not enough. The Enterprise-B did not look like the Enterprise-A, the Enterprise-C did not look like the Enterprise-B, the Enterprise-D did not look like the Enterprise-C, and the Enterprise-E did not look like the Enterprise-D. In each case there were clear design changes which denoted a specific design era, and that nobody would ever mistake one class for another. In the case of the Ent-F, it just looked like they took a Sovereign and an Intrepid and mated them together. And from a distance, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the Odyssey class from the Sovereign class.

That's the problem with having a fixed design language & the time frame that the Enterprise-F was supposed to come out.

You can only do so much with a Protagonist Vessel like the USS Enterprise.

Having requirements for a Saucer, Stardrive, (optional neck), pair of Warp Nacelles & pylons; there's only so many combinations you can pull off before they start looking "Similar".

The major difference between the Odyssey class & Sovereign class at a distance is:
- The twin necks that are blended into the Stardrive section, Sovereign has no neck.
- Also the Warp Nacelles are very different.
- The Saucer is a pointy rounded shape instead of a Oval with slight cut-outs.
- The bulbous Stardrive compared to the sleek one of the Sovereign.
- The Deflector Dish is a very different shape compared to the circular one on the Soveriegn.

 

[Tomalak]

Yeah, the Ent-F is a larger, bulkier, uglier Sovereign. I'm not a fan.

But I think it's cool that fan designers got a chance to contribute to the franchise, and these have been canonised with ships like this and the Titan (both of them).

I'm also quite relaxed on derivative designs, because literally everything in Star Trek is derived from the work of Matt Jefferies.

 

[Dukhat]

But cars have to operate on roads with Federally Regulated "Vehicle: Length, Width, & Height Restrictions" along with target audience & performance specs.
You can't really increase their sizes by very much.

When you're designing a vessel for the vacuum of space, the size restrictions don't really matter.
As long as you include what is necessary to meet the Performance & Operational targets, you can scale it up as needed.

I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about the attributes of the cars. I was talking about taking the original ship (in this case, the TMP-era Shangri-la class) and scaling it up enormously while at the same time keeping all of its design attributes exactly the same, other than giving it new nacelles. It's no different than if back in 1987, Andrew Probert just upscaled his TMP Enterprise to four times the size but kept the design exactly the same to make it the new Enterprise-D.

That's the problem with having a fixed design language & the time frame that the Enterprise-F was supposed to come out.

You can only do so much with a Protagonist Vessel like the USS Enterprise.

Having requirements for a Saucer, Stardrive, (optional neck), pair of Warp Nacelles & pylons; there's only so many combinations you can pull off before they start looking "Similar".

That's not true at all. I have seen multitudes of fan designs for ships from specific eras that do not look alike and can easily be determined what time period the ship came from. That's gotten harder to do with Eaves's design style.

The major difference between the Odyssey class & Sovereign class at a distance is:
- The twin necks that are blended into the Stardrive section, Sovereign has no neck.
- Also the Warp Nacelles are very different.
- The Saucer is a pointy rounded shape instead of a Oval with slight cut-outs.
- The bulbous Stardrive compared to the sleek one of the Sovereign.
- The Deflector Dish is a very different shape compared to the circular one on the Soveriegn.

And as I mentioned before, I see the differences, and they are simply not enough of a change from the previous ship.

But I think it's cool that fan designers got a chance to contribute to the franchise, and these have been canonised with ships like this and the Titan (both of them).

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for fans having their designs canonized. I would just like those designs to make sense in the context of how they are being used.

 

[B.J.]

Keeping in mind that it was just the winner of a non-canon video game contest and not designed by a production person for the show

I'm sure you remember Dukhat, but the designer (Adam Ihle) used to be a regular poster here under "ihlecreations", especially in the Fan Art forum.
(If anyone wants to peruse the discussion when the contest went out, even if most of the images are broken.... > https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/design-the-next-enterprise.132240/ )

 

[Dukhat]

I'm sure you remember Dukhat, but the designer (Adam Ihle) used to be a regular poster here under "ihlecreations", especially in the Fan Art forum.
(If anyone wants to peruse the discussion when the contest went out, even if most of the images are broken.... > https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/design-the-next-enterprise.132240/ )

Oh, I remember. And I felt incredibly sorry for the guy with all the crap he had to endure here because of how he won the contest.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about the attributes of the cars. I was talking about taking the original ship (in this case, the TMP-era Shangri-la class) and scaling it up enormously while at the same time keeping all of its design attributes exactly the same, other than giving it new nacelles. It's no different than if back in 1987, Andrew Probert just upscaled his TMP Enterprise to four times the size but kept the design exactly the same to make it the new Enterprise-D.

Yeah, if that's the issue you have, then there's not much we can do about that.
If you want to blame the original designers, you can blame both Doug Drexler & Bill Krause.
They co-designed the Constitution-III.
That's why it came out the way it did, basically a upscaled Shangri-La class.

That's not true at all. I have seen multitudes of fan designs for ships from specific eras that do not look alike and can easily be determined what time period the ship came from. That's gotten harder to do with Eaves's design style.

Fair enough, especially given how much of his work is within ST already.

And as I mentioned before, I see the differences, and they are simply not enough of a change from the previous ship.

IC, well to me, they seem like a evolution of previous design lineage & what was going on during that time in ship design.
Remember, there's a < 30 year time gap between the introductions of the Sovereign Class & Odyssey Class.
I'm not expecting drastic design changes given how much time was in between the designs.

 

[Dukhat]

Remember, there's a < 30 year time gap between the introductions of the Sovereign Class & Odyssey Class.
I'm not expecting drastic design changes given how much time was in between the designs.

There was only a 9 year time gap between the introduction of the Galaxy class and the Sovereign class. And they look completely different.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

There was only a 9 year time gap between the introduction of the Galaxy class and the Sovereign class. And they look completely different.

2x Borg Incursions + Klingon War + Dominion War will change how Starfleet approaches Starship designs + tech.

After Voyager came back sucessfully intact + brought new tech, I'm sure there were many that studied Voyagers journey along with her ship configuration.

So I'm not surprised that the Intrepid class is highly valued in Starship design circles.

And what major incidents happened after ST:NEM?

The Synth Rebellion, but that was a inside job as we both know.

Romulus' main star goes Supernova, but that didn't affect Starfleet other than waste a lot of (lives / time / resources) making cargo vessels to haul refugees.

There was no major incident that prompted the need for drastic Starship design changes other than the Synth Rebellion.

And that was more of a logistics issue.

 

[Ithekro]

Given how quickly the Sovereign-class came out, it was not likely designed as a replacement for the Galaxy-class. It was designed for something else, but the USS Enterprise-D was lost and a replacement starship was needed and a Sovereign was about to be launched, so they took that one. One wonders what the hull that became the USS Enterprise-E was originally ordered as, since it is unlikely they ordered it and built it in a year to become the new Enterprise.

 

[B.J.]

There was only a 9 year time gap between the introduction of the Galaxy class and the Sovereign class. And they look completely different.

It could be argued that the Galaxy class was at the tail end (culmination?) of a design trend that included "older" ships like the New Orleans, Freedom, and Cheyenne classes with their organic shapes, and the Sovereign began a completely new more mechanical trend. Not that I agree with that completely though. Smooth out some of the hard edges and cutouts on the Sovereign and it looks a lot better as a Galaxy successor IMO.

 

[Dukhat]

2x Borg Incursions + Klingon War + Dominion War will change how Starfleet approaches Starship designs + tech.

After Voyager came back sucessfully intact + brought new tech, I'm sure there were many that studied Voyagers journey along with her ship configuration.

So I'm not surprised that the Intrepid class is highly valued in Starship design circles.

And what major incidents happened after ST:NEM?

The Synth Rebellion, but that was a inside job as we both know.

Romulus' main star goes Supernova, but that didn't affect Starfleet other than waste a lot of lives / time / resources making cargo vessels to haul refugees.

There was no major incident that prompted the need for drastic Starship design changes other than the Synth Rebellion.

And that was more of a logistics issue.

I get that you're trying to justify ship designs based on in-universe circumstances, but honestly I don't see how any of that really matters. These ships are fictitious and designed by whoever artist was given the job to do so. The people who submitted their entries for the Design the Enterprise-F contest weren't given a laundry list of factors to take into consideration when coming up with their ideas. It was literally just 'design a ship and we'll choose the winner.' Starships in Star Trek these days are rarely designed with any kind of rhyme or reason behind them, other than perhaps to look 'cool.'

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I get that you're trying to justify ship designs based on in-universe circumstances, but honestly I don't see how any of that really matters.

Fair enough.

These ships are fictitious and designed by whoever artist was given the job to do so. The people who submitted their entries for the Design the Enterprise-F contest weren't given a laundry list of factors to take into consideration when coming up with their ideas. It was literally just 'design a ship and we'll choose the winner.' Starships in Star Trek these days are rarely designed with any kind of rhyme or reason behind them, other than perhaps to look 'cool.'

True.

 

[Dukhat]

Given how quickly the Sovereign-class came out, it was not likely designed as a replacement for the Galaxy-class. It was designed for something else, but the USS Enterprise-D was lost and a replacement starship was needed and a Sovereign was about to be launched, so they took that one. One wonders what the hull that became the USS Enterprise-E was originally ordered as, since it is unlikely they ordered it and built it in a year to become the new Enterprise.

It could be argued that the Galaxy class was at the tail end (culmination?) of a design trend that included "older" ships like the New Orleans, Freedom, and Cheyenne classes with their organic shapes, and the Sovereign began a completely new more mechanical trend. Not that I agree with that completely though. Smooth out some of the hard edges and cutouts on the Sovereign and it looks a lot better as a Galaxy successor IMO.

I agree that the Sovereign class was most likely already in service before the Ent-D was destroyed and was not supposed to be the class of the next Enterprise (as it was estimated that the Galaxy class would have a 100 year lifespan in the tech manual, but the veracity of that on-screen is lacking.) I also agree that the Galaxy 'family' was on its way out tech-wise, with older ships of that family operating 20 years before. The Sovereign, Nova, Prometheus, and Intrepid classes seemed to be taking over as the next generation of starships, while the Galaxy was apparently headed toward obsolescence but was not there yet.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the 100-year estimate for the longevity of the Galaxy-class was just a best-case scenario. New technologies and unforeseen changes in Starfleet shipbuilding policy could render any design out of fashion even after only a few years in service. There may have been other designs before the Galaxy-class with 100-year expected lifespans, but very few ever were around that long.

 

[Ithekro]

As it was, the Enterprise had only been in service for seven or eight years at that point. The USS Galaxy was launched only about a half decade before the Enterprise, so the class had been in service less than fifteen years by the time the Enterprise was lost and the Sovereign was coming out. They had lost at least three of the class, possibly four by the end of that year with both Enterprise and Odyssey being lost in combat around the same time. Yamato being lost years earlier and perhaps Admiral Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359 between those events.

 

[USS Firefly]

But during the Domion war there where a lot of Galaxy classes

As it was, the Enterprise had only been in service for seven or eight years at that point. The USS Galaxy was launched only about a half decade before the Enterprise, so the class had been in service less than fifteen years by the time the Enterprise was lost and the Sovereign was coming out. They had lost at least three of the class, possibly four by the end of that year with both Enterprise and Odyssey being lost in combat around the same time. Yamato being lost years earlier and perhaps Admiral Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359 between those events.

 

[Firebird]

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for fans having their designs canonized. I would just like those designs to make sense in the context of how they are being used.

I've always thought the new ship designs pulled from STO in season 3 looked exactly like the video game designs they were. Something about them didn't match with the production design of the shows.

And the damn Enterprise-F is a fugly eyesore. Was there ever an explanation why they didn't just make it the E instead of making that terrible throw away gag?

 

[B.J.]

I've always thought the new ship designs pulled from STO in season 3 looked exactly like the video game designs they were. Something about them didn't match with the production design of the shows.

Agreed. I really don't know why they look like video game designs instead of production-worthy designs, but it's one of several issues I have with them.