Enterprise-D vs. Voyager (extenuating circumstances)

[Deks]

Technically, ALL SF ships would be exploratory type ships (oriented towards science).
The way they were designed seems to be 'ultimate versatility and exploration' in mind (at least before Ds9 decided to make 'dedicated warships') and probably an even match to most ships of neighboring interstellar powers the Federation is aware of.

No. Why would you think that? The Enterprise D is a capital ship, designed to be able to complete many different types of missions, including battleship. We saw quite a few of them in the Dominion War.

To my knowledge, it was never stated the Enterprise-D is a 'capital ship'. It may have been the 'flagship', but hardly what I would call a 'battleship'.
The closest we can come up with using canon data is that the Enterprise-D was a ship of exploration (and Voyager was also mentioned to be one).
What we saw during the Dominion War was a bunch of pre-existing Federation star-ships that were fighting against the Dominion - I don't think any 'military' designations were given to different Federation ships (except 'fans' who apparently had a need to transpose current day terms to something that was supposed to be inherently different - even Picard found it incredulous that a man from the late 20th century in 'The Neutral Zone' compared the Enterprise to a 'naval ship').
We also saw just 1 galaxy class featuring minor upgrades to its weapons systems... the USS Venture (which was modified with 2 extra phaser strips, each one on the top of the warp nacelles) - we hadn't seen other Galaxy class ships being outfitted with these phaser changes, and perhaps they weren't needed as most of the upgrades would probably occur on the inside to increase effectiveness against Dominion ships.

 

[T'Girl]

Except that Voyager was launched roughly 7 years after the Enterprise-D.

As the "Flagship of the Federation," the Enterprise would of had access to all the newest upgrades in sensors, phaser emitters, torpedoes, computers, etc.

Look at the battle between the Defiant and the Lakota. The newest, most heavily armed for it size warship in Starfleet verses an aging Excelsior Class cruiser, but with it's resent upgrades the Lakota held it own.

Just because a ship is smaller, doesn't mean it cannot match or surpass the larger ones in terms of combat ability.

It kind of does. A larger ship to begin with has a larger warp core. By necessity just to move it - more powerful impulse engines (additional power production). More numerous auxiliary power units. And all these thing can be spread farther apart, making collateral damage less likely.

While the Enterprise is a larger target, much of the Enterprise's internal volume is non-combat critical. A lesser percent of the Voyager could be described the same.

The phaser emitters (the "strips") on the Enterprise have over twice the width of Voyagers. Suggesting greater energy output.

And remember, prior to battle (or during) the Enterprise can jettison it saucer section, Voyager can not dispense with a portion of it bulk.

the galaxy class has a number of different non-combat systems which are left on during combat situations.

Or casually switched off. One of the advantages of the Enterprise's large volume is that life support can be switched off and simply keep the air circulation "fans" running. Voyager has a lesser per person cubic meter ratio.

Picard found it incredulous that a man from the late 20th century in 'The Neutral Zone' compared the Enterprise to a 'naval ship'

Buzzer -- the guy from the 20th century said that the Enterprise wasn't as efficient run as a luxury cruise ship he was once aboard.

He never at any point compared it to a naval ship.

Now Voyager takes on a Borg Tactical cube, you know ...

You mean "the baby cube?"

In military parlance, tactical means small, local, lower powered, short term and flexible.

Flexible is alway good.

in Best Of Both Worlds

That was a full sized cube, what I and some others (completely non-canon) refer to as a "strategic cube." From shot of the Enterprise and the cube on screen simultaneously, this thing was over ten cubic kilometres in size, and was in no way "tactical."

The Enterprise D ... [snip] We saw quite a few of them in the Dominion War.

And in the Dominion War, when the Federation was fighting for it's life, anyone remember Starfleet using any Intrepid class starships in battle?

That says something.

 

[NCC-1701-B]

And in the Dominion War, when the Federation was fighting for it's life, anyone remember Starfleet using any Intrepid class starships in battle?

That says something.

But how long does it take to build a starship? The Intrepid class entered service in 2370, with the Dominion war taking place from 2373.

By 2373 we know of there being 3 ships? The Intrepid, Voyager and the Bellerophon, I think Voyager and The Bellerophon were commissioned in 2371. So with Voyager being away, that leaves 2 Intrepid class ships that are known about at the time of the dominion war. Surely it would be much easier and quicker to upgrade the countless excelsior and miranda class ships than to build more new ships?

 

[T'Girl]

anyone remember Starfleet using any Intrepid class starships in battle?

But how long does it take to build a starship?

How long does it take to deploy whatever number of the mighty Intrepids to the front? Again, we didn't see any. Perhaps they are not that mighty?







.

 

[NCC-1701-B]

My point was really that there were only 2 intrepid class starships in service at the time, that we know of. How much of the war got actual airtime? Quite possible we never saw one for that reason.

 

[Dream]

I can see the Galaxy Class being very useful during the Dominon War. It's large size would be useful for carrying troops into battle, and it became even more tough after some weapon and shield upgrades.

 

[Deks]

[
But how long does it take to build a starship? The Intrepid class entered service in 2370, with the Dominion war taking place from 2373.

Actually, star-ship build times would have to be small if you take into account the premise of using automation for construction (humans/humanoids slow the construction process down considerably, therefore, this kind of process wouldn't allow for humanoid interference - only perhaps at the drawing boards).

T'girl
The only reason we only saw the Bellerophon in Ds9 was because the producers didn't want to 'confuse' the audiences (the same reason the Enterprise-E was never shown, even though that by the time FC rolled out, DS9 would have been in its 4th season - before the Dominion war).
On that same subject... we have seen in TNG both the Ambassador and Constellation classes being used for blockade of the Romulan Neutral Zone. Why hadn't we seen them during the Dominion war whereas the dingy Miranda's apparently made it along with the Excelsiors?

As the "Flagship of the Federation," the Enterprise would of had access to all the newest upgrades in sensors, phaser emitters, torpedoes, computers, etc.

Look at the battle between the Defiant and the Lakota. The newest, most heavily armed for it size warship in Starfleet verses an aging Excelsior Class cruiser, but with it's resent upgrades the Lakota held it own.

So what if the Enterprise would have access to all the newest upgrades?
If SF designed the Intrepid class to be a downsized Galaxy class, they would probably keep it's combat capabilities on the same level.

As for the Lakota vs the Defiant - yes, an ageing Excelsior class was upgraded to match the Defiant... but that doesn't mean same type of upgrades would be available for the Galaxy class (which basically received an upgrade to its warp core and warp speed by Season 7 of TNG - modifications to the phasers and torpedoes were also done largely to accomodate anti-Borg systems, but those would already be a part of the Intrepid class starships, and Voyager was equipped with Type 6 photon torpedoes which at the time were praised to be 'newest').

It kind of does. A larger ship to begin with has a larger warp core. By necessity just to move it - more powerful impulse engines (additional power production). More numerous auxiliary power units. And all these thing can be spread farther apart, making collateral damage less likely.

Actually, just because you have a necessity for a larger energy source to power bigger engines, doesn't mean firepower will also be equally large - it simply means you have that much bigger power demand for the engines to move a large ship which requires more power than a smaller one to achieve the same goal.
Spreading apart auxiliary power units doesn't really mean squat since we hadn't seen Federation ships employing such methods on their ships.

While the Enterprise is a larger target, much of the Enterprise's internal volume is non-combat critical. A lesser percent of the Voyager could be described the same.

Your point being?
Precision targeting pretty much negates these kinds of things and the last time I checked, both ships can be equally vulnerable on seemingly 'non-critical' parts.

The phaser emitters (the "strips") on the Enterprise have over twice the width of Voyagers. Suggesting greater energy output.

Phaser strips width were never stated to have anything to do with energy output.
Phaser Type on the other hand is a different story, and we know from the show creators Voyager WAS created to feature Type X just like the Galaxy class.

the guy from the 20th century said that the Enterprise wasn't as efficient run as a luxury cruise ship he was once aboard.

He never at any point compared it to a naval ship.

Picard's exact line: 'He's comparing the Enterprise to a cruise ship?'
Naval: Of or relating to ships or shipping

And remember, prior to battle (or during) the Enterprise can jettison it saucer section, Voyager can not dispense with a portion of it bulk.

Accurate, but Intrepids don't have the ability to separate (unless you count the latest non-canon novel in which they gained that ability) the Enterprise-D rarely employed its separation tactic and we don't know that when separated, the battle section would be more powerful than the Intrepid or basically gains the ability to maneuver a bit more while moving its civilian population to safety (which the Intrepids wouldn't really have in the first place, and they are already highly maneuverable).

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^ I knew this big text was coming

 

[RB_Kandy]

Now Voyager takes on a Borg Tactical cube, you know ...

You mean "the baby cube?"

In military parlance, tactical means small, local, lower powered, short term and flexible.

Flexible is alway good.

That was no "baby cube", here's a screen cap http://i45.tinypic.com/2ic7a55.jpg

That little blur on the left is Voyager.
That thing is at least the size of the cube that Enterprise faced. In fact I think it's bigger!

Look at the son of a brick, it has freakin armor!

This is what Seven Of Nine had to say about it.

"This is a class four tactical Vessel, heavily armed, the central plexes is protected by multi regenerative security grids..."

And she said it like "You honestly think you have any chance in hell of taking on this thing!?"

It's made clear in that episode (Unimatrix Zero) that this is not your run of the mill borg cube exploring space looking for things to assimilate. This is what the borg whip out when the kid gloves come off.

Normal Borg Cube= "Hi, we're the borg, we're just exploring. Would you like to be assimilated into our collective? We won't take no for an answer."

Class Four Tactical Cube= "We are the borg, bend over because your ass belongs to us now."

 

[T'Girl]

You mean "the baby cube?"

That was no "baby cube", here's a screen cap http://i45.tinypic.com/2ic7a55.jpg

From this image, if the Voyager is even with the nearest face, and given that the ship is 132 metres across, that makes the cube's face about 700 metres square. Just 60 metres more than the Enterprise D's total length.

If the Voyager is pass the cube, then the cube is smaller than 700 metres. The further away the Voyager is in this image, the smaller the cube.

The baby "tactical" cube is much smaller than the large "strategic" cube that the Enterprise encountered. Each face of that larger cube was multiple times the length of the Enterprise.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Wasn't the large one supposed to be 5 km on each side? I remember Enterprise blowing massive holes in it. Beating any Borg, even the small cube is pretty impressive though

 

[T'Girl]

The Borg are a formidable foe, taking down even something really small like a sphere is a good job.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If SF designed the Intrepid class to be a downsized Galaxy class,

I'm pretty sure it wasn't seeing as I hear that was kind of part of Voyager's premise and all

Where do people even get the idea that the Intrepid was supposed to be a mini-Galaxy, the only ship I would think would remotely qualify as a downsized Galaxy would be the Soverign-class.

The Borg are a formidable foe, taking down even something really small like a sphere is a good job.

So I guess the Soverign is more badass for taking a sphere out with only 4 or 5 torpedoes

 

[T'Girl]

Many of that sphere's systems were off-line owing to the time travel.

 

[RB_Kandy]

You mean "the baby cube?"

That was no "baby cube", here's a screen cap http://i45.tinypic.com/2ic7a55.jpg

From this image, if the Voyager is even with the nearest face, and given that the ship is 132 metres across, that makes the cube's face about 700 metres square. Just 60 metres more than the Enterprise D's total length.

If the Voyager is pass the cube, then the cube is smaller than 700 metres. The further away the Voyager is in this image, the smaller the cube.

The baby "tactical" cube is much smaller than the large "strategic" cube that the Enterprise encountered. Each face of that larger cube was multiple times the length of the Enterprise.

These articles make it clear that the tactical cube was an incredibly powerful ship, which had greater firepower than a standard borg cube
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_tactical_cube

And from the star trek online wiki
http://www.stowiki.org/Tactical_Cube

 

[Captain McBain]

Wasn't the large one supposed to be 5 km on each side? I remember Enterprise blowing massive holes in it. Beating any Borg, even the small cube is pretty impressive though

The large Borg Cube has a size of 28 cubic kilometers, making it over 3 kilometers on each side.

 

[T'Girl]

here's a screen cap http://i45.tinypic.com/2ic7a55.jpg

These articles make it clear that the tactical cube was an incredibly powerful ship, which had greater firepower than a standard borg cube
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_tactical_cube

Okay.

First, memory-beta concerns the Star Trek novels, none of which are canon. All information on Borg cubes that came from a novel is also not canon.

Second, memory-beta claims that a baby "tactical" cube is 3,040 metres. You yourself posted a link to a image of Voyager (132 metres max width) adjacent to a baby cube. How can you reconcile the 3,040 metre figure, with the linked image?

And from the star trek online wiki . http://www.stowiki.org/Tactical_Cube

Star Trek Online is a internet fansite, they can make up anything they want to play their little wargames. It's all fan fiction, some of it is interesting, but non-canon.

 

[RB_Kandy]

here's a screen cap http://i45.tinypic.com/2ic7a55.jpg

These articles make it clear that the tactical cube was an incredibly powerful ship, which had greater firepower than a standard borg cube
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_tactical_cube

Okay.

First, memory-beta concerns the Star Trek novels, none of which are canon. All information on Borg cubes that came from a novel is also not canon.

Second, memory-beta claims that a baby "tactical" cube is 3,040 metres. You yourself posted a link to a image of Voyager (132 metres max width) adjacent to a baby cube. How can you reconcile the 3,040 metre figure, with the linked image?

And from the star trek online wiki . http://www.stowiki.org/Tactical_Cube

Star Trek Online is a internet fansite, they can make up anything they want to play their little wargames. It's all fan fiction, some of it is interesting, but non-canon.

Voyager is closer to the camera than the cube.
I have given you references, and maybe those references are not to your liking, but they are references none the less. Memory Alpha didn't mention its size or how it compares to a normal cube.

Your assertion that a Class 4 Tactical Cube is a baby cube, needs to be proven.
The episode Unimatrix Zero, made it obvious to the audience that this was a "bad ass" version of a borg cube. All links I can find say it is a "bad ass" version of a normal borg cube.
You are the only person on this planet claiming it is a "baby cube".
If you have a reference, even a non cannon reference, I'd like to see it. Other wise, I am going to assume that I am correct, until I see something other than your own personal opinion, to contradict me.

 

[mtblillie]

Keep in mind that on paper (or pad) a galaxy class might have the edge, but a battle is won by tactics, not strength. I'm not saying that Janeway and the crew of Voyager would beat Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, I'm just saying that technology is meant to give your side an edge, not a definite victory. Combat is about pitting your strengths against your enemy's weaknesses, while minimizing the exposure of your weaknesses or allowing your enemy to use their strengths.

 

[T'Girl]

If you have a reference, even a non cannon reference ...

Why would I use something that's non-canon as a reference?

Voyager is closer to the camera than the cube.

No it not, and here's my proof of that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDrZohw44ys

I'd like to see it.

The battle between the baby "tactical" cube and Voyager begins at about the two minute mark.

Voyager fires two torpedoes on it's approach. The cube fires three times, first as Voyager approaches, second while it is along side, and third after it passes. The image that you provided a link for is inbetween the second and third firings.

The second firing is from the upper edge and is down onto Voyagers shields. Voyager is along side the cube at this point.

The third firing is as Voyager recedes, striking Voyager's shields from behind. Given Voyagers position inbetween firings two and three is about even with the far face of the cube, the cube isn't even 700 metres square, it's smaller.

It definitely isn't over 3,000 metres.

Other wise, I am going to assume that I am correct

And now you know you're not.

something other than your own personal opinion

Not my opinion, just the facts from the episode, and measurements based on Voyagers width (132 metres).