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Enterprise becoming a training ship?

Didn't they list quite a few things as being totally conjectural on their part, though? And it wasn't like their chronology was set in stone--VOY later gave us our first official placement of Kirk's 5-year mission, which began and ended a year later than what the Okudas proposed.
Yeah, I think they were pretty clear about where they were coming from with most of their reasoning. One of the things I like about their Chronology is how transparent they were about it. If you're wondering why a certain event is placed in a certain year, they explain it, more likely than not.

But I think that since they were working on the show, they were in a position to make sure that many of their conjectures became established facts. Like Troi casually mentioning that the UFP was founded in 2161 during a poker game. And even the stuff that was altered wasn't off by more than a year or two from what the Okudas conjectured. So I'd say that it's likely that Trek writers were expected to stay within the general parameters that the Okudas had established.
 
I'm surprised that it never occurred to anyone the Romulan Ale was probably bottled Stardate 2283 (circa TOS' first season), which would certainly be 'a while' for fermenting!
 
I'm surprised anyone takes the "2283" to mean *anything* as far as Star Trek chronologies go... why would Romulans put a Terran or Federation date on their bottles at all? It's not even *legal* in the Federation, so what would be the incentive?

Of course that would bring up the whole question of how Kirk could read Romulan...
 
I'm surprised that it never occurred to anyone the Romulan Ale was probably bottled Stardate 2283 (circa TOS' first season), which would certainly be 'a while' for fermenting!

Oh, trust me, it occurred to plenty of people a very long time ago. I've seen that among the many different theories that were put forth in the 11 years between TWOK and the first Star Trek Chronology, along with the idea that it was 2283 in the Romulan calendar. And there was plenty of disagreement over whether McCoy's "takes a while" line was meant sincerely (i.e. it really was old) or sarcastically (i.e. it was very recent).

Keep in mind that no actual Gregorian calendar date for the current year of a Trek story was ever given until TNG: "The Neutral Zone" in 1988. Before then, there were two prevailing theories about when Star Trek occurred: the Spaceflight Chronology (and I think FASA gaming) model that put the 5-year mission c. 2206-09, give or take (to reconcile the various "23rd century" references in The Making of Star Trek, Blish, and the movies with the "200 years" references in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed" by putting it as early in the century as possible), and an alternate model that put TOS exactly three centuries in its own future, in 2266-69. If anything, the SFC model was probably more favored in fandom when TWOK came out, considering that it was used in some novels like Final Frontier. Heck, I favored it myself back then, and when "The Neutral Zone" said the current year was 2364, which pretty much confirmed that TOS was in the 2260s, I groaned because it meant I had to redo my entire personal chronology (which was in pencil and paper at the time) from start to finish.

So at the time TWOK came out, a large percentage of fans who kept track of Trek chronology, perhaps even a majority of them, would've assumed that it took place somewhere in the early 2220s. So under that model, it would be a given that 2283 had to be a stardate, a Romulan date, or something else.
 
Oh, trust me, it occurred to plenty of people a very long time ago. I've seen that among the many different theories that were put forth in the 11 years between TWOK and the first Star Trek Chronology, along with the idea that it was 2283 in the Romulan calendar. And there was plenty of disagreement over whether McCoy's "takes a while" line was meant sincerely (i.e. it really was old) or sarcastically (i.e. it was very recent).

Keep in mind that no actual Gregorian calendar date for the current year of a Trek story was ever given until TNG: "The Neutral Zone" in 1988. Before then, there were two prevailing theories about when Star Trek occurred: the Spaceflight Chronology (and I think FASA gaming) model that put the 5-year mission c. 2206-09, give or take (to reconcile the various "23rd century" references in The Making of Star Trek, Blish, and the movies with the "200 years" references in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed" by putting it as early in the century as possible), and an alternate model that put TOS exactly three centuries in its own future, in 2266-69. If anything, the SFC model was probably more favored in fandom when TWOK came out, considering that it was used in some novels like Final Frontier. Heck, I favored it myself back then, and when "The Neutral Zone" said the current year was 2364, which pretty much confirmed that TOS was in the 2260s, I groaned because it meant I had to redo my entire personal chronology (which was in pencil and paper at the time) from start to finish.

So at the time TWOK came out, a large percentage of fans who kept track of Trek chronology, perhaps even a majority of them, would've assumed that it took place somewhere in the early 2220s. So under that model, it would be a given that 2283 had to be a stardate, a Romulan date, or something else.

Very interesting stuff. Wasn't TNG's early timeline a little in flux before the "Neutral Zone," though? In the TNG pilot, Data is said to have graduated in the class of "'79," a date which neither meshes with the final timeline or the old FASA dating system (maybe, I'd need to crunch some numbers to see if the math works on the latter or not).

Since McCoy had mentioned that he's gotten the ale from someone who traveled through Romulan space, wouldn't that open the possibility that the second party had converted the vintage into a Federation-style date?
 
Well, I think that they didn't have too much choice, because:

A) In most instances it doesn't matter much if a particular incident was 49, 50, or 51 years ago (Which is why the conjectural date of Zefram Cochrane's first warp flight was adjusted from 2061 to 2063 between the first and second editions of the Chronology - First Contact had moved the date two years forward in time).

B) Once you start interpreting every date less than literally, where does it end? What's to stop you from saying, "Oh, well they said 20 years, but let's make 30 because it fits better with our conjectural timeline?" If you're assembling a timeline out of something that's been written by dozens of writers over the course of 30+ years, you're going to have some discrepancies here and there. That's unavoidable. All you can do is try to do what makes the most sense with the majority of information. It's just that the "TWOK was 18 years after Space Seed" thing is one of the Okudas' more egregious misjudgments.

That's why people invented "c." and/or "~" :p
 
Very interesting stuff. Wasn't TNG's early timeline a little in flux before the "Neutral Zone," though? In the TNG pilot, Data is said to have graduated in the class of "'79," a date which neither meshes with the final timeline or the old FASA dating system (maybe, I'd need to crunch some numbers to see if the math works on the latter or not).

It was "class of '78," actually, but yeah. Roddenberry never wanted to pin down an exact time frame for the series, which was why they invented stardates as a completely meaningless placeholder. I've always suspected that the only reason the 2364 date got onscreen at all was because "The Neutral Zone" was filmed during the '88 writers' strike and thus had to be shot from a first-draft script (which is why it's such an incoherent mess). Of course, by that point, Roddenberry was already too ill to function as the showrunner, but if he had been able to do a rewrite on the script, I doubt he would've let the calendar date get through.


Since McCoy had mentioned that he's gotten the ale from someone who traveled through Romulan space, wouldn't that open the possibility that the second party had converted the vintage into a Federation-style date?

Maybe, but that's the whole point -- at the time, there was no way of ruling out any possibility, because it was just a throwaway line in a movie in a franchise that had never, up to that point, established any kind of clear or consistent chronology.


In the forward of the book, it was specifically stated what the assumptions were going in and how those could create margins of error. So, the "c" was always implied.

Yes, but most of fandom consistently ignored that and treated the dates as exact, and we Pocket tie-in authors were in fact required to treat the Okudachron dates as exact except in cases where later canon had contradicted them. So the "circa" was a bit too implicit, if you ask me.
 
It was "class of '78," actually, but yeah. Roddenberry never wanted to pin down an exact time frame for the series, which was why they invented stardates as a completely meaningless placeholder.
The "Class of '78" bit reminds me of a pet peeve of mine with the Okuda chronology - McCoy's age. When you put the reference to McCoy being 137 years old in "Encounter at Farpoint" together with the specific year 2364 from "The Neutral Zone," you end up with a McCoy who was in his late 30s during TOS -- which was substantially younger than the show typically implied and not consistent with DeForest Kelley's actual age. It bugs me that people have no problem totally discounting Data being in the Stafleet Class of '78 yet they treat the 137 age from the same episode as incontrovertible gospel. It's my opinion that McCoy doesn't work as well as a character if he's not 10-15 years Kirk's senior.

I've always suspected that the only reason the 2364 date got onscreen at all was because "The Neutral Zone" was filmed during the '88 writers' strike and thus had to be shot from a first-draft script (which is why it's such an incoherent mess). Of course, by that point, Roddenberry was already too ill to function as the showrunner, but if he had been able to do a rewrite on the script, I doubt he would've let the calendar date get through.
Interesting theory, and I agree that that sounds very plausible. It's funny to think that we might not have a definite chronology for Star Trek if it wasn't for the writer's strike.

we Pocket tie-in authors were in fact required to treat the Okudachron dates as exact except in cases where later canon had contradicted them. So the "circa" was a bit too implicit, if you ask me.
I suppose that's certainly the way to keep things simple with the licensees. At least they had some flexibility -- I seem to recall that TMP was shifted from 2271 to 2273 fairly quickly to keep it consistent with Kirk's line about being Chief of Starfleet Operations for two and a half years.

And apparently that's changed slightly -- David A. Goodman commented in his afterword to The Autobiography of Jame T. Kirk that he was allowed to depart from the Chronology in certain instances (He has the incident with Ben Finney and the Republic happening after Kirk's graduation from Starfleet Academy, for instance, which fits with Kirk's statement in "Court Martial" that it was "some years later" after Finney instructed Kirk). So maybe they allow you to adjust things slightly if you can make a good argument for it?
 
It was "class of '78," actually, but yeah. Roddenberry never wanted to pin down an exact time frame for the series, which was why they invented stardates as a completely meaningless placeholder. I've always suspected that the only reason the 2364 date got onscreen at all was because "The Neutral Zone" was filmed during the '88 writers' strike and thus had to be shot from a first-draft script (which is why it's such an incoherent mess). Of course, by that point, Roddenberry was already too ill to function as the showrunner, but if he had been able to do a rewrite on the script, I doubt he would've let the calendar date get through.

Really interesting possibility. I actually do like that the franchise started hammering down dates and stuff, since it makes the series seem a lot more real to me (but I can see the advantages to having a floating timeline where we only have estimates).

Maybe, but that's the whole point -- at the time, there was no way of ruling out any possibility, because it was just a throwaway line in a movie in a franchise that had never, up to that point, established any kind of clear or consistent chronology.

I was admittedly speculating after the fact. It would be interesting to know what the original intent was for the ale's date was (Romulan year, Gregorian year, stardate, random gibberish we were supposed to not assign any value to, whatever).

Yes, but most of fandom consistently ignored that and treated the dates as exact, and we Pocket tie-in authors were in fact required to treat the Okudachron dates as exact except in cases where later canon had contradicted them. So the "circa" was a bit too implicit, if you ask me.

Well, yeah, I suppose. On the other hand, the Chronology has been subsequently used by the TV shows as a guide to the extent that most of it's assumptions need to be in place for the franchise's internal history to work.

I would also say that, as a reader and viewer of the franchise, having some "official" dating and order of events is appreciated, esp. since the Chronology generally hangs together (excusing troublesome spots, like the date of Star Trek - The Motion Picture not quite working with the end of TOS and/or TAS being moved from 2269 to 2270 thanks to "Q2" [VGR]).

The "Class of '78" bit reminds me of a pet peeve of mine with the Okuda chronology - McCoy's age. When you put the reference to McCoy being 137 years old in "Encounter at Farpoint" together with the specific year 2364 from "The Neutral Zone," you end up with a McCoy who was in his late 30s during TOS -- which was substantially younger than the show typically implied and not consistent with DeForest Kelley's actual age. It bugs me that people have no problem totally discounting Data being in the Stafleet Class of '78 yet they treat the 137 age from the same episode as incontrovertible gospel. It's my opinion that McCoy doesn't work as well as a character if he's not 10-15 years Kirk's senior.

I suspect that the reason for that is that Data's original graduation date makes no sense in any timeline, whereas McCoy's age could with with the final Chronology assumptions, since a character doesn't need to be the same age as their actor. Also, had Data's line not been contradicted by "The Neutral Zone" (TNG), his original graduation would've been kept, so they weren't playing favorites.

And apparently that's changed slightly -- David A. Goodman commented in his afterword to The Autobiography of Jame T. Kirk that he was allowed to depart from the Chronology in certain instances (He has the incident with Ben Finney and the Republic happening after Kirk's graduation from Starfleet Academy, for instance, which fits with Kirk's statement in "Court Martial" that it was "some years later" after Finney instructed Kirk). So maybe they allow you to adjust things slightly if you can make a good argument for it?

I think the Chronology admitted that Kirk's backstory had quite a few inconsistencies and they worked to try and create a "best guess" that made sense and didn't ignore everything. Since that part of the timeline was already guesswork and not hard canon, I could see that Goodman might've been allowed leeway for his own interpretation. (Given that the book claimed that Star Trek V was an "in-universe" movie, fidelity to canon wasn't exactly Goodman's priority in the first place.)
 
I'm surprised anyone takes the "2283" to mean *anything* as far as Star Trek chronologies go... why would Romulans put a Terran or Federation date on their bottles at all? It's not even *legal* in the Federation, so what would be the incentive?

Every good smuggler makes his own label...
 
I suspect that the reason for that is that Data's original graduation date makes no sense in any timeline

From what I can find online, it looks like FASA had the first season of TNG in 2303, so having Data graduate 25 years before that in 2278 doesn't seem terribly unreasonable.

Every good smuggler makes his own label...

I guess I just don't know enough about smuggling! :lol:
 
From what I can find online, it looks like FASA had the first season of TNG in 2303, so having Data graduate 25 years before that in 2278 doesn't seem terribly unreasonable.

Okay, I never played the FASA game (I love the LUG Star Trek RPG, though), and have read only a few of the novels that use that old timeline (some really good ones, though!) so I wasn't aware of this. Cool info.
 
That's odd... I had no idea the German intro gave a specific year. Interesting that they went with the numerous "200 years" references to give a date pretty much in-line with the FASA/STC dates.

I honestly just assumed the German intro would have been just a straight translation of the English "Space... the final frontier" intro. Would any of the German speakers here be willing to post the English translated text of the full German intro?
 
Would any of the German speakers here be willing to post the English translated text of the full German intro?
From Charly X:
"Der Weltraum - unendliche Weiten."
"Space - infinite space."
This makes no sense... The most correct translation would be something like space - borders that are infinitly distant from where we are located. Maybe the best compromise is Space - infite expanse. It still sounds slightly silly. I probably just have gone with Space - the final frontier.

"Wir schreiben das Jahr 2200."
"The year is 2200."

"Dies sind die Abenteuer des Raumschiffs Enterprise das mit seiner 400 Mann starken Besatzung 5 Jahre lang unterwegs ist um neue Welten zu erforschen, neues Leben und neue Zivilisationen."
"These are the adventures of the Starship Enterprise which, with its 400 man crew, is exploring new worlds, new life and new civilizations for 5 years."
I think I screwd up the sentence structre...

"Viele Lichtjahre von der Erde entfernt dringt die Enterprise in Galaxien vor die noch nie ein Mensch zuvor gesehen hat."
"Many lightyears away from Earth, the Enterprise enters galaxies that no human has seen before."
That line would explain some of the weirder distances in TOS like Zarabeth being located millions of lightyears away from Earth.
 
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