Enterprise arriving after the main battle over Vulcan

[3D Master]

Basically our heroes survived because Sulu was a fucking nincompoop.

No, the Enterprise survived because Nero wanted Spock to watch Vulcan be destroyed.

Which makes turning a main character in an idiot completely pointless.

How do you figure that? Whats the connection between the Enterprise arriving late to the battle (therefore missing out on getting destroyed) and Nero plopping Spock down on "D'Ltah V'gah"?

The Enterprise arriving late doesn't matter, because if you hadn't noticed, the Narada had the Enterprise in the scope and then Nero went, "WAIT!" He then doesn't destroy the Enterprise, because he wanted both Spocks to watch the destruction of Vulcan.

Thus, had the Enterprise arrived with the fleet, Nero would have done the same thing.

Uh, our heroes do idiotic things all the time. Like getting trapped in a wormhole with an asteroid heading towards them because somebody doesn't know jackshit about "his" ship.

That's not idiotic, and it's not jackshit. Having a brand new warp engine design, put in a just barely put together refit, and not having all the kinks worked out, is not forgetting to turn off a system that keeps the ship inert and docked, and then not even be able to figure out what the problem is.

 

[Saul]

Maybe a slight Time dilation in the minute they took to go to Warp. They were already too late. The battle could have lasted longer from the prespective of the fleet who got their sooner and faster because they left first.

 

[Pauln6]

You time dilation is the best, simplest, and briefest plausible explanation I've heard. I'll stick with that one.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, the Enterprise survived because Nero wanted Spock to watch Vulcan be destroyed.

Which makes turning a main character in an idiot completely pointless.

How do you figure that? Whats the connection between the Enterprise arriving late to the battle (therefore missing out on getting destroyed) and Nero plopping Spock down on "D'Ltah V'gah"?

The Enterprise arriving late doesn't matter, because if you hadn't noticed, the Narada had the Enterprise in the scope and then Nero went, "WAIT!" He then doesn't destroy the Enterprise, because he wanted both Spocks to watch the destruction of Vulcan.

Thus, had the Enterprise arrived with the fleet, Nero would have done the same thing.

Uh, our heroes do idiotic things all the time. Like getting trapped in a wormhole with an asteroid heading towards them because somebody doesn't know jackshit about "his" ship.

That's not idiotic, and it's not jackshit. Having a brand new warp engine design, put in a just barely put together refit, and not having all the kinks worked out, is not forgetting to turn off a system that keeps the ship inert and docked, and then not even be able to figure out what the problem is.

If the Enterprise had arrived with the fleet Nero wouldn't have noticed its name. Again it late arrival saves it.

No it is idiotic. He used his postition to gain the command of a ship that he knew next to nothing about. He alienated the man who did know the ship. And ignores the advice of his Engineer. His unfamiliarity with the ships systems almost proved fatal. Ego over commonsense.

 

[3D Master]

How do you figure that? Whats the connection between the Enterprise arriving late to the battle (therefore missing out on getting destroyed) and Nero plopping Spock down on "D'Ltah V'gah"?

The Enterprise arriving late doesn't matter, because if you hadn't noticed, the Narada had the Enterprise in the scope and then Nero went, "WAIT!" He then doesn't destroy the Enterprise, because he wanted both Spocks to watch the destruction of Vulcan.

Thus, had the Enterprise arrived with the fleet, Nero would have done the same thing.

Uh, our heroes do idiotic things all the time. Like getting trapped in a wormhole with an asteroid heading towards them because somebody doesn't know jackshit about "his" ship.

That's not idiotic, and it's not jackshit. Having a brand new warp engine design, put in a just barely put together refit, and not having all the kinks worked out, is not forgetting to turn off a system that keeps the ship inert and docked, and then not even be able to figure out what the problem is.

If the Enterprise had arrived with the fleet Nero wouldn't have noticed its name. Again it late arrival saves it.

No it is idiotic. He used his postition to gain the command of a ship that he knew next to nothing about. He alienated the man who did know the ship. And ignores the advice of his Engineer. His unfamiliarity with the ships systems almost proved fatal. Ego over commonsense.

There's nothing to do with common sense. There was a threat coming, you had to go. And his engineer did not say anything about causing a "wormhole" if he activated the warp core. Neither would Decker have been able to do a damn thing to prevent a wormhole from forming. And he didn't alienate Decker anywhere near enough to stop him from being on that ship correcting the phaser versus torpedo mistake. So, did Kirk make a mistake. Was he being dumb, sure.

Was he however a complete and utter moron who after doing the equivalent of forgetting to put the care in drive, then not realize what he did wrong? Not even fucking close. If I forget to put my car in drive, and I don't drive off, I don't need to figure out what I forgot, I look down to the stick, and put it in drive. Sulu went: wait a second, got nothing, how come we're not going, I'm looking around folks, still got nothing, but I'll get there. And then Spock had to bail him out.

And for what? Nothing. Don't have him look like a complete idiot, don't have the following four minutes of 12 plotholes of screen time, and they arrive with the fleet, have them be shocked as the rest of the fleet gets blown to bits, and then Nero spares them, and the movie would have been about 100 times better than it was now.

Of course, a 100 times barely nothing is still barely nothing, but still.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So you agree that Kirk was dumb.(an idiot) Just as Sulu was. Of course now you've upped the anti to complete and utter moron.

Captain, we need further Warp simulation on the flow sensors...

Engineer, we need Warp speed now!

It's borderline on the simulator,Captain: I canna guarantee that she'll...

That's where he ignores his engineer's advice.

Decker doesnt have a deathwish so of course he will "belay that phaser order."

And the wormhole was caused by an imbalance in the anti-matter mix. Further simulation might have prevented it.

Captain, it was our anti-matter imbalance that created the wormhole in the first place. It will happen again if we don't correct it.

Commonsense tells you to listen to the people who know what they're doing and what the ship can do.

I think almost totalling your car, because you drove against the advice of your mechanic, is a bigger bone head move than forgetting to release the parking brake, because you where nervous when driving a new car.

 

[3D Master]

So you agree that Kirk was dumb.(an idiot) Just as Sulu was.

Nope, not at all. Kirk was doing things that were completely reasonable. Sulu was just a total idiot and moron.

Of course now you've upped the anti to complete and utter moron.

Captain, we need further Warp simulation on the flow sensors...

Engineer, we need Warp speed now!

It's borderline on the simulator,Captain: I canna guarantee that she'll...

That's where he ignores his engineer's advice.

Decker doesnt have a deathwish so of course he will "belay that phaser order."

And the wormhole was caused by an imbalance in the anti-matter mix. Further simulation might have prevented it.

Captain, it was our anti-matter imbalance that created the wormhole in the first place. It will happen again if we don't correct it.

Commonsense tells you to listen to the people who know what they're doing and what the ship can do.

Further simulation could also mean the destruction of humanity, which you seem to ignore. There was a crisis, something was coming that already annihilated multiple ships and stations with ease.

If there was nothing going on and Kirk did the same thing, you'd have a point. But in the face of a crisis, nope.

I think almost totalling your car, because you drove against the advice of your mechanic, is a bigger bone head

If going against your mechanic is the only way to get off of some train tracks before the train smashes your car and you and your family to smithereens, and totaling your car is the price to be paid, no, that's not a bone head maneuver, that's the smart thing to do for survival.

move than forgetting to release the parking brake, because you where nervous when driving a new car.

He didn't just forget it; he couldn't even figure out what he forgot, Spock needed to tell him. That's a massive difference.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I dunno, V'Ger was a pretty slow crisis. And Spock was on the way to save the day anyway. So the difference in the time used to fix the problem was probably negligible. Ah well, it added some needed excitement to the film.

I've had to remind people (some of whom are highly intelligent) to release their parking brake or put their car in drive on occasion. So the scene was funny and relatable. Which was probably part of the intent.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Enterprise arriving late doesn't matter, because if you hadn't noticed, the Narada had the Enterprise in the scope and then Nero went, "WAIT!" He then doesn't destroy the Enterprise, because he wanted both Spocks to watch the destruction of Vulcan.

Thus, had the Enterprise arrived with the fleet, Nero would have done the same thing.

That's not idiotic, and it's not jackshit. Having a brand new warp engine design, put in a just barely put together refit, and not having all the kinks worked out, is not forgetting to turn off a system that keeps the ship inert and docked, and then not even be able to figure out what the problem is.

If the Enterprise had arrived with the fleet Nero wouldn't have noticed its name. Again it late arrival saves it.

No it is idiotic. He used his postition to gain the command of a ship that he knew next to nothing about. He alienated the man who did know the ship. And ignores the advice of his Engineer. His unfamiliarity with the ships systems almost proved fatal. Ego over commonsense.

There's nothing to do with common sense. There was a threat coming, you had to go. And his engineer did not say anything about causing a "wormhole" if he activated the warp core. Neither would Decker have been able to do a damn thing to prevent a wormhole from forming. And he didn't alienate Decker anywhere near enough to stop him from being on that ship correcting the phaser versus torpedo mistake. So, did Kirk make a mistake. Was he being dumb, sure.

Was he however a complete and utter moron who after doing the equivalent of forgetting to put the care in drive, then not realize what he did wrong? Not even fucking close. If I forget to put my car in drive, and I don't drive off, I don't need to figure out what I forgot, I look down to the stick, and put it in drive. Sulu went: wait a second, got nothing, how come we're not going, I'm looking around folks, still got nothing, but I'll get there. And then Spock had to bail him out.

And for what? Nothing. Don't have him look like a complete idiot, don't have the following four minutes of 12 plotholes of screen time, and they arrive with the fleet, have them be shocked as the rest of the fleet gets blown to bits, and then Nero spares them, and the movie would have been about 100 times better than it was now.

Of course, a 100 times barely nothing is still barely nothing, but still.

Okay let me see if I have this right.

Making a ROOKIE mistake when you are a rookie is unforgivably stupid, but being a seasoned veteran who makes a decision against the input of the people who know how the damned ship works that almost gets EVERYONE killed because he's impatient is understandable

And I reiterate

 

[Pauln6]

It just shows that Kirk has never been that great a captain. He's always been a risk-taker and he's always been lucky!

 

[3D Master]

Okay let me see if I have this right.

Making a ROOKIE mistake when you are a rookie is unforgivably stupid, but being a seasoned veteran who makes a decision against the input of the people who know how the damned ship works that almost gets EVERYONE killed because he's impatient is understandable

And I reiterate

A rookie mistake is one thing, the idiot however didn't even figure out what his rookie mistake was, which is a level of idiocy far beyond any little thing Kirk has ever done.

And again, it's got nothing to do with impatient, it's got to do with threat coming that you do not have time to run simulations for. You either go, or you're dead.

 

[Jeyl]

And again, it's got nothing to do with impatient, it's got to do with threat coming that you do not have time to run simulations for. You either go, or you're dead.

Who's to say they wouldn't have had enough time to resolve the conflict when they did encounter V'Ger without going to warp? There were a lot of 'slow' moments that didn't reflect Kirk's quick "We need warp speed now!" attitude.

Kirk: We need to intercept it while it still is out there!.....but now that we're here and it doesn't mind us being close to it, let's travel above it very slowly.

 

[3D Master]

And again, it's got nothing to do with impatient, it's got to do with threat coming that you do not have time to run simulations for. You either go, or you're dead.

Who's to say they wouldn't have had enough time to resolve the conflict when they did encounter V'Ger without going to warp? There were a lot of 'slow' moments that didn't reflect Kirk's quick "We need warp speed now!" attitude.

Kirk: We need to intercept it while it still is out there!.....but now that we're here and it doesn't mind us being close to it, let's travel above it very slowly.

Yeah, that's usually case when you're there. If you go very fast you're no longer there, a long way from there, wasting you the time of leaving the place where you need to be, and having to turn around and go back.

Not to mention that bit where the wormhole actually saved them time, they were much closer then they would be if they had gone normal warp.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Okay let me see if I have this right.

Making a ROOKIE mistake when you are a rookie is unforgivably stupid, but being a seasoned veteran who makes a decision against the input of the people who know how the damned ship works that almost gets EVERYONE killed because he's impatient is understandable

And I reiterate

A rookie mistake is one thing, the idiot however didn't even figure out what his rookie mistake was, which is a level of idiocy far beyond any little thing Kirk has ever done.

And again, it's got nothing to do with impatient, it's got to do with threat coming that you do not have time to run simulations for. You either go, or you're dead.

Really? because:

Captain's Log. Stardate 7413.4Thanks to Mr. Spock's timely arrival - and assistance we have the engines rebalanced into full warp capacity. Repair time less than three hours...

I wonder if the simulation would have taken less time?

Lord knows what would have happend if Spock hadn't shown up. Stroke of luck that. Spock, who's been out of Starfleet seems to know more than Kirk!

Didnt see any thing about the wormhole saving them time.

Ilia had correct their course.

Computing new interception course.

Maintaining warp point eight; I show our new heading as 287 point three Mark 105.

I think they were thrown off course and reduced to sublight.

 

[3D Master]

Okay let me see if I have this right.

Making a ROOKIE mistake when you are a rookie is unforgivably stupid, but being a seasoned veteran who makes a decision against the input of the people who know how the damned ship works that almost gets EVERYONE killed because he's impatient is understandable

And I reiterate

A rookie mistake is one thing, the idiot however didn't even figure out what his rookie mistake was, which is a level of idiocy far beyond any little thing Kirk has ever done.

And again, it's got nothing to do with impatient, it's got to do with threat coming that you do not have time to run simulations for. You either go, or you're dead.

Really? because:

I wonder if the simulation would have taken less time?

They didn't need to run a simulation, they needed to run simulationS. That means run a simulation, figure out all the variables, try again, and again, and again, until it was done. In other words; this was a brand new engine, and it wasn't actually ready.

Lord knows what would have happend if Spock hadn't shown up. Stroke of luck that. Spock, who's been out of Starfleet seems to know more than Kirk!

Spock knows more science than Kirk, and this has always been the case. If the simulations took to long, there would have been a dead-in-the-water Enterprise as V'ger arrived, with Spock nowhere in sight as his little transport would have had to go much farther, all the way to Earth, instead of meet Enterprise half-way.

Didnt see any thing about the wormhole saving them time.

Watch it again.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If is a mighty big word.

I'm watching the movies with the subtitles on and following along with the shooting script. No reference to the wormhole saving them time.

ETA: When the Enterprise launches, V'Ger is two days away from Earth. When they reach the intercept point V'Ger is a day away from Earth. So it must have taken a day to get there. Originally it was a calculated at 20 hours.

 

[3D Master]

If is a mighty big word.

I'm watching the movies with the subtitles on and following along with the shooting script. No reference to the wormhole saving them time.

ETA: When the Enterprise launches, V'Ger is two days away from Earth. When they reach the intercept point V'Ger is a day away from Earth. So it must have taken a day to get there. Originally it was a calculated at 20 hours.

Then you must be watching a very weird cut, because last I watched them, the dialog that the wormhole sped them up a good chunk is in every cut I've seen.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Director's Cut and the Shooting script say no. If you have the theatrical cut pop it in and let me know. The dialog about their ETA with V'Ger would seem to support no time advantage as well.

Maybe the "wormhole" is actually one of those short cuts, I forget the technobabble term, people use to rationalize the speed of plot movement of ships. (Apparently its not a wormhole in the "classical sense". )

 

[3D Master]

Director's Cut and the Shooting script say no. If you have the theatrical cut pop it in and let me know. The dialog about their ETA with V'Ger would seem to support no time advantage as well.

Maybe the "wormhole" is actually one of those short cuts, I forget the technobabble term, people use to rationalize the speed of plot movement of ships. (Apparently its not a wormhole in the "classical sense". )

Enterprise left when V'Ger was less than two days away. They can reach V'Ger when they still have more than a day before it reaches Earth.

V'Ger is much faster than the Enterprise, it's been zipping across the galaxy at great speeds, and crossing Federation space in but days.

V'Ger is coming to Earth VERY fast, while the Enterprise is going toward it pretty slowly in comparison. It would, then, have intercepted V'Ger much closer to Earth than "more than a day away". In fact, it would probably be, for V'Ger, only hours from Earth (while it would have taken Enterprise 20 hours to get there). Yet Enterprise manages to intercept it with more than a day before it reaches Earth.

That means it shaved at least several hours off of their journey, and possibly double digit hours.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I duuno, It might have added some time. Decker says this before the wormhole:

Captain, assuming we have full Warp capability, accelerating to Warp Seven on leaving solar system will bring us to IP with the Intruder in twenty point one hours.

Given at the time of Kirk's speech to the crew V'Ger was 2 days (48 hours away) they would have arrived at the IP with slighty more than a day until V'Ger would reach Earth. (26 hours if you minus the two hours from launch to the point Kirk decided to go to warp.)