Enterprise arriving after the main battle over Vulcan

[BurntSynapse]

If these kinds of arguments run long enough the 'a wizard did it' or 'Q did it' type defences can always be raised or the new 'it's a new timeline and the (inconsistent) laws of Trek physics can be re-written to accomodate'. If the writers actually cared, these kind of errors and plot holes wouldn't be there and if the writers don't care there will always be a percentage of viewers who don't care or whose suspension of disbelief threshold is higher.

Most of the plot holes could have been covered with tighter dialogue i.e a few brief lines. Some should have been re-written e.g. using supernovas and black holes instead of made-up phenomena. I also think if Spock had beamed Kirk to the brig of the Starfleet outpost we could have saved ourselves 15 mnutes of pointless trekking through the snow just to fight a CGI monster, had Spock Prime free Kirk from the brig to overcome the ludicrous coincidence of stumbling into him in a cave and overlook why starfleet officers were ignoring a distress beacon from an escape pod.

I agree 100%!

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed and they clearly felt the film required some kind of story onto which they could pin-up great sets, effects, and actors. The dialog has a similar telltale lack of coherence, consistency, or believability.

The film's production and content had much in common with the idea that God created the colors of the sky and roses to be most pleasing to the human eye, rather than human eyes evolving to see environmental colors and react emotionally, and I suspect this commonality is not coincidence.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

If these kinds of arguments run long enough the 'a wizard did it' or 'Q did it' type defences can always be raised or the new 'it's a new timeline and the (inconsistent) laws of Trek physics can be re-written to accomodate'. If the writers actually cared, these kind of errors and plot holes wouldn't be there and if the writers don't care there will always be a percentage of viewers who don't care or whose suspension of disbelief threshold is higher.

Most of the plot holes could have been covered with tighter dialogue i.e a few brief lines. Some should have been re-written e.g. using supernovas and black holes instead of made-up phenomena. I also think if Spock had beamed Kirk to the brig of the Starfleet outpost we could have saved ourselves 15 mnutes of pointless trekking through the snow just to fight a CGI monster, had Spock Prime free Kirk from the brig to overcome the ludicrous coincidence of stumbling into him in a cave and overlook why starfleet officers were ignoring a distress beacon from an escape pod.

I agree 100%!

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed and they clearly felt the film required some kind of story onto which they could pin-up great sets, effects, and actors. The dialog has a similar telltale lack of coherence, consistency, or believability.

The film's production and content had much in common with the idea that God created the colors of the sky and roses to be most pleasing to the human eye, rather than human eyes evolving to see environmental colors and react emotionally, and I suspect this commonality is not coincidence.

Factually incorrect.

Bad Robot and Paramount had a first draft of the script long before sets were designed and built.

 

[Pauln6]

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed and they clearly felt the film required some kind of story onto which they could pin-up great sets, effects, and actors. The dialog has a similar telltale lack of coherence, consistency, or believability.

Factually incorrect.

Bad Robot and Paramount had a first draft of the script long before sets were designed and built.

So are you saying they have no legitimate excuse for these plot holes?

Plan 9 from Outer Space is the classic example. Considering the budget they had can we scale up the errors and say that this movie was as silly?

 

[BurntSynapse]

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed...

Factually incorrect.

Hypothetically, I'd rightfully feel pretty dumb if I publicly dismissed an opinion by an expert in project scheduling without even finding whether his opinion came from the creators.

What evidence indicates my assertion is not factually true?

Bad Robot and Paramount had a first draft of the script long before sets were designed and built.

This does not appear to be evidence in your favor:

Although I tend to doubt this "evidence"unless we are very generous accepting a)what might be called "notes" as a "draft" and b) "long" for a 130 page script is the equivalent of approx. 2 months full-time.

Nevertheless, if we DO assume these and that the doubted "evidence" claim is true, the obvious question is: Why would anyone consider lag time between availability of a 1st draft script and availability of the first set design in assessing whether adequate time for writing was built into the schedule?

Your post seems to suggest longer lag between these milestones indicates more time for writing rather than less, IIRC.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed...

Factually incorrect.

Hypothetically, I'd rightfully feel pretty dumb if I publicly dismissed an opinion by an expert in project scheduling without even finding whether his opinion came from the creators.

What evidence indicates my assertion is not factually true?

Bad Robot and Paramount had a first draft of the script long before sets were designed and built.

This does not appear to be evidence in your favor:

Although I tend to doubt this "evidence"unless we are very generous accepting a)what might be called "notes" as a "draft" and b) "long" for a 130 page script is the equivalent of approx. 2 months full-time.

Nevertheless, if we DO assume these and that the doubted "evidence" claim is true, the obvious question is: Why would anyone consider lag time between availability of a 1st draft script and availability of the first set design in assessing whether adequate time for writing was built into the schedule?

Your post seems to suggest longer lag between these milestones indicates more time for writing rather than less, IIRC.

I was simply correcting an error, not making an argument.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I've been thinking on the issue as to how long between the Fleet's arrival at Vulcan, and the Enterprise's arrival at Vulcan to see the wreckage.

I submit that this particular situation is plausible and logical, even with the short time assuming both the fleet and the Enterprise were travelling at the same speed.

I submit the following events:

- Enterprise and Fleet depart Earth, with short lag due to Sulu's parking break issue.
- Shortly before the Fleet arrives, Nero is alerted to the approach of the Starfleet ships.
- Due to the drill's interference, the fleet cannot see the Narada in low Vulcan orbit, so are ready for an assessment and likely rescue mission.
- The Narada then does a quick calculation to determine where/when the ships will emerge from Warp, and shortly before they come out of warp, sent a large barrage of those missiles.
- As the ships come out of warp, they see the missiles split seconds before they tear apart their unshielded hulls, breaking them up into pieces.
- At the same time, Kirk is suning to the Bridge with Numbtounge etc., and the Enterprise's shields are raised, ready for the possible attack.
- The Enterprise emerges from warp, and there's the wreckage at the same co-ordinates the Fleet came out of warp at.
- The rest is in the movie.

Now, what about this very likely and straightforward scenario is impossible or implausible?

I submit that a scenario similar to this is what likely occurred, and is what was implied by the movie.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

That is very plausible, had the events depicted on screen correlated that theory. The only problem is the sensor issue. The Narada's drill disrupted transporters and communications (yet Nero was able to communicate with Pike while the drill was operating - go figure), but not sensors. Never was there a mention of sensor malfunction or jamming. In fact, Captain Pike told the comm officer to scan Vulcan space for transmissions. The comm officer told Pike that all the ships were out of warp but that there was no communication. So the sensors were working fine. Therefore, why could they not tell that the fleet was in ruins? My observation is that this scene was poorly executed and was meant as an homage to the Falcon at Alderaan scene in Star Wars. It was also meant to be a dramatic moment. It's that simple. They weren't thinking about the plausibility of the scene, only the dramatic tension. And it worked out poorly in my opinion.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

That is very plausible, had the events depicted on screen correlated that theory. The only problem is the sensor issue. The Narada's drill disrupted transporters and communications (yet Nero was able to communicate with Pike while the drill was operating - go figure), but not sensors. Never was there a mention of sensor malfunction or jamming. In fact, Captain Pike told the comm officer to scan Vulcan space for transmissions. The comm officer told Pike that all the ships were out of warp but that there was no communication. So the sensors were working fine. Therefore, why could they not tell that the fleet was in ruins? My observation is that this scene was poorly executed and was meant as an homage to the Falcon at Alderaan scene in Star Wars.

First, it is not sensors doing the scanning for transmissions, but communications equipment.

Radio operators often "scan" for transmissions, meaning to listen for signals, or cycle through frequencies and listen for chatter.

Second, as an alternative, I submit that sensors may be less accurate/defined when travelling at Warp.

Third, if the Enterprise didn't see the wreckage or the Narada, then it is safe to assume the previous ships could not see the Narada either.

Good points, but with a slight adgjustment, the general scenario still works.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Also, there is no dialogue in the movie that establishes that the fleet came out of warp. There is an extended sequence in the novel, but nothing in the film.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Also, there is no dialogue in the movie that establishes that the fleet came out of warp. There is an extended sequence in the novel, but nothing in the film.

Yes there is. When Pike told the comm officer to scan for transmissions, she told Pike that all the ships have dropped out of warp but that she was not picking up any transmissions of any kind.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I was simply correcting an error, not making an argument.

IMO, correcting an error normally entails providing correct information rather than just typing "factually incorrect".

How might an interested person determine whether the creators really "did have a story to tell" (and time to create it) which drove production, falsifying my theory and justifying the "correction"?

I wouldn't be too upset to learn my impression is mistaken.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Also, there is no dialogue in the movie that establishes that the fleet came out of warp. There is an extended sequence in the novel, but nothing in the film.

Yes there is. When Pike told the comm officer to scan for transmissions, she told Pike that all the ships have dropped out of warp but that she was not picking up any transmissions of any kind.

This is what I remember:
OFFICER: Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish Romulan from Vulcan.
PIKE: Cadet, can you speak Romulan?
UHURA: All 3 dialects, Sir.
PIKE: Relieve the lieutenant.
UHURA: Yes sir.
...
UHURA: I'm not picking up any Romulan transimissions, or any transmissions of any kind.
KIRK: It's because they are being attacked.
PIKE: Red Alert. Shields up.
...
SULU: Arrival in 5 seconds, 4... 3... 2... 1.
Again, there is simply not statement that the ships have come out of warp.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

First, it is not sensors doing the scanning for transmissions, but communications equipment. Radio operators often "scan" for transmissions, meaning to listen for signals, or cycle through frequencies and listen for chatter.

Actually, sensors had to be used to determine that the other ships had dropped out of warp. That's what the comm officer told Captain Pike. Communications scans would not have been able to determine that.

Second, as an alternative, I submit that sensors may be less accurate/defined when travelling at Warp.

That's possible.

Third, if the Enterprise didn't see the wreckage or the Narada, then it is safe to assume the previous ships could not see the Narada either.

Either that or the writers simply didn't put enough thought into that scene. Or they had their minds on Star Wars at the time.

Good points, but with a slight adgjustment, the general scenario still works.

Not really. At least according to what was seen on screen.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

First, it is not sensors doing the scanning for transmissions, but communications equipment. Radio operators often "scan" for transmissions, meaning to listen for signals, or cycle through frequencies and listen for chatter.

Actually, sensors had to be used to determine that the other ships had dropped out of warp. That's what the comm officer told Captain Pike. Communications scans would not have been able to determine that.

Second, as an alternative, I submit that sensors may be less accurate/defined when travelling at Warp.

That's possible.

Third, if the Enterprise didn't see the wreckage or the Narada, then it is safe to assume the previous ships could not see the Narada either.

Either that or the writers simply didn't put enough thought into that scene. Or they had their minds on Star Wars at the time.

Good points, but with a slight adgjustment, the general scenario still works.

Not really. At least according to what was seen on screen.

Point one is, I believe, incorrect on your counter. That dialogue does not exist in the film.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

This is what I remember:
OFFICER: Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish Romulan from Vulcan.
PIKE: Cadet, can you speak Romulan?
UHURA: All 3 dialects, Sir.
PIKE: Relieve the lieutenant.
UHURA: Yes sir.
...
UHURA: I'm not picking up any Romulan transimissions, or any transmissions of any kind.
KIRK: It's because they are being attacked.
PIKE: Red Alert. Shields up.
...
SULU: Arrival in 5 seconds, 4... 3... 2... 1.
Again, there is simply not statement that the ships have come out of warp.

Before that scene. After Kirk explains to Pike what is going on. Pike asks the comm officer to scan Vulcan space for transmissions. I can't remember the actual line. I'll have to watch it again to quote it. The comm officer then tells Pike that the ships are out of warp but there are no transmissions. The scene you quoted comes later, I think. As I said, I'll have to watch it again. I'm working from memory.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Point one is, I believe, incorrect on your counter. That dialogue does not exist in the film.

Actually, it is. I'll watch it again tonight and quote it. I'll even put the time index in.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Its in there, I just checked.

PIKE: Hannity, hail the USS Truman.

HANNITY: All the other ships are out of warp sir and have arrived at Vulcan, but we seem to have lost all contact.

Then Uhura mention she's picking up no Romulan transmissions or transmissions of any kind.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I also think if Spock had beamed Kirk to the brig of the Starfleet outpost we could have saved ourselves 15 mnutes of pointless trekking through the snow just to fight a CGI monster

This has two fundamental problems.

1) We would then have twenty people complaining about Kirk and Spock conveniently finding a transporter pad in the middle of nowhere and
2) The entire CGI monster sequence was a key sequence in the film, deliberately inserted by the production crew for creative reasons; eliminating it is a little like rolling credits immediately after Kirk rescues Pike.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think a core problem was that the creators did not have a story to tell, they had a movie contract that was over schedule the day the contract was signed and they clearly felt the film required some kind of story onto which they could pin-up great sets, effects, and actors. The dialog has a similar telltale lack of coherence, consistency, or believability.

Factually incorrect.

Bad Robot and Paramount had a first draft of the script long before sets were designed and built.

So are you saying they have no legitimate excuse for these plot holes?

Depends on how you define "legitimate."

I think "dude, it's just a movie" is a perfectly legitimate explanation.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Its in there, I just checked.

What, you watched that scene of the movie?