Engineering -- Warp Engines?
- Thread starter Smellincoffee
- Start date
Eventually, the engines would be the size of walnuts.
It all depended on the nature of the crisis. If it was an external threat that was endangering the ship, and resolving the crisis meant stopping that external threat (talking the mad computer into destroying itself, zapping the alleged Greek god, stopping the big planet eating thingamajig, etc.), then the references tended to be something vague about the nacelles. But if the only way to resolve the crisis meant dealing with the engines (jump starting the warp drive, fixing that burned out dilithium matrix, stopping the runaway matter/antimatter reaction), then the references get pretty damn specific.
Indeed. To be sure, "antimatter nacelle" is a very specific one-off reference from TAS "One of Our Planets Is Missing", and may be shorthand for "the nacelle that contains apparatus for jump-starting the warp power system with manual insertion of antimatter". Elsewhere, IIRC, the reference is actually to "matter-antimatter pods" or "antimatter pods" (which could be internal features), not to nacelles (which ought to be external features).
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I thought that'd be nicely specific if it were the case, so I checked. In "Elaan of Troyius":
Scott: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.
And in "That Which Survives":
Scott: I sent him in to check the matter-antimatter reactor.
But in "By Any Other Name":
Spock: The Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors.
Must be quantum reactor(s) that change(s) quantity depending on who's observing. Spock, with his Vulcanian anatomy, would naturally operate in terms of "dual equipment"...
Check out "By Any Other Name"; Scott refers to "matter-antimatter nacelles" in the "Are you mad?" turbolift scene. And in "The Doomsday Machine", prior to the alien machine's first attack on the Enterprise, Spock reports to Kirk via wireless: "...the energy from our power nacelles seems to attract it."
I don't see why there can't be reactors in both the nacelles and the inhabited hulls. Maybe the reactor(s) in the engine room serve as central "control reactors" as the hub of a network on powerplants.
"By Any Other Name" is one of those cases where resolving the threat has nothing to do with the ship, but with the aliens who've taken control, and the technobabble idea is never acted on anyway, so what the writers thought they were cooking up is largely irrelevant.
My main complaint with the notion of reactors in the nacelles all boils down to one word: ACCESS. If something breaks and the reactor is going to go supercritical in three minutes and it takes seven minutes to go all the way up that frakking nacelle strut...well, let's just say the words "major design flaw" would feature prominently in the accident investigation report.
In my deck plans, as a concession to those few odd references that just don't seem to satisfactorily reconcile with the standard central-reactor-in-the-hull model, I've put small backup reactors (very rudimentary, no dilithium, they either work, allowing speeds of around warp two in order to get out of whatever situation they're in, or they don't; not enough fuel for a runaway reaction, and reactants easily vented to avoid a breach). They're there under protest, and as soon as I can justify losing 'em, they're gone.
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It seems to me the "multiple reactor" model is best for reconciling the different references in TOS itself, and then TOS with later revisionism. And besides, it makes sense anyway from a practical redundancy POV.
To me, it makes little sense in arguing against "anti-matter nacelles" since the referances in TOS/TAS are there for all to hear, and is reflected in the intentional design of the ship by Matt Jefferies, who put said nacelles away from the habitable areas of the ship for quick and easy ejection, and is also there for all to see. There may be other techno-babble reasons for keeping the nacelles away from the hulls, but the above is the reason given from the start, and can be considered as "official" as anything in trek tech can be.
As far as quick access in emergencies; yes, this presents some problems for our hypothetical engineers, but like so many things in the real world, it's a matter of finding the best compromise between two or more competing necessities. In this case the need to keep the dangerous stuff (anti-matter fuel) away from the living areas obviously overrides the need to gain quick and easy access, this is probably mitigated by the fact that the nacelles have few, if any, moving parts etc. that would require routine maintanance?
Also, since were forced to conclude that there is also a reactor in the secondary hull this would further mitigate the need to access the nacelles, requiring only small lifts like we saw in TMP engine room (but "slanted") running up the pylons to expedite repairs in the nacelles. In fact, based on his diagrams Jefferies seems to have had precisely this in mind?
In any event, the simple answer is that, under normal operating conditions, the anti-matter is stored in the nacelles, but is channeled into the secondary hull for mixing there. This way, much less anti-matter is in the secondary hull at any given time, and presents much less danger to the crew, but is also being kept safely away from the main living/working areas of the primary hull at the same time. In emergencies, depending on the nature, either one or both of the nacelle reactors can take over if the "main(s)" are of line; or, if both nacelles are jettisoned, you still have the other reactor(s) in the secondary hull, either powerd by fusion or perhaps by a comparitively small amout of anti-matter transfered there (assuming there was time) to get out of danger or get you where you're going.
P.S. I should probably mention that the Idea of Bussard collecters to scoop up "fuel" is a TNGism and does not apear anywhere in TOS/TAS so it would be unfair of us to assume that the design of the original ship and/or its associated techno-babble should reflect this later capability. I take it as explicit in Jefferies design that the nacelles store quite a bit of anti-matter fuel? Hence the danger to the rest of the ship from catestrophic containment failure. Whether it is generated onboard, collected along the way, or is replenished by "tankers", it is clear that it needs to be "stock piled" in suficiant quantities, which of course, says something about the nature of, and availability of, this fuel.
To me, it makes little sense in arguing against "anti-matter nacelles" since the referances in TOS/TAS are there for all to hear, and is reflected in the intentional design of the ship by Matt Jefferies, who put said nacelles away from the habitable areas of the ship for quick and easy ejection, and is also there for all to see. There may be other techno-babble reasons for keeping the nacelles away from the hulls, but the above is the reason given from the start, and can be considered as "official" as anything in trek tech can be.
As far as quick access in emergencies; yes, this presents some problems for our hypothetical engineers, but like so many things in the real world, it's a matter of finding the best compromise between two or more competing necessities. In this case the need to keep the dangerous stuff (anti-matter fuel) away from the living areas obviously overrides the need to gain quick and easy access, this is probably mitigated by the fact that the nacelles have few, if any, moving parts etc. that would require routine maintanance?
Also, since were forced to conclude that there is also a reactor in the secondary hull this would further mitigate the need to access the nacelles, requiring only small lifts like we saw in TMP engine room (but "slanted") running up the pylons to expedite repairs in the nacelles. In fact, based on his diagrams Jefferies seems to have had precisely this in mind?
In any event, the simple answer is that, under normal operating conditions, the anti-matter is stored in the nacelles, but is channeled into the secondary hull for mixing there. This way, much less anti-matter is in the secondary hull at any given time, and presents much less danger to the crew, but is also being kept safely away from the main living/working areas of the primary hull at the same time. In emergencies, depending on the nature, either one or both of the nacelle reactors can take over if the "main(s)" are of line; or, if both nacelles are jettisoned, you still have the other reactor(s) in the secondary hull, either powerd by fusion or perhaps by a comparitively small amout of anti-matter transfered there (assuming there was time) to get out of danger or get you where you're going.
P.S. I should probably mention that the Idea of Bussard collecters to scoop up "fuel" is a TNGism and does not apear anywhere in TOS/TAS so it would be unfair of us to assume that the design of the original ship and/or its associated techno-babble should reflect this later capability. I take it as explicit in Jefferies design that the nacelles store quite a bit of anti-matter fuel? Hence the danger to the rest of the ship from catestrophic containment failure. Whether it is generated onboard, collected along the way, or is replenished by "tankers", it is clear that it needs to be "stock piled" in suficiant quantities, which of course, says something about the nature of, and availability of, this fuel.
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If the nacelles contain the bulk of the antimatter, then tanks of matter might well be in the engineering hull, and the "reaction" implicit in the term "reactor" would take place when the two meet. Should they meet halfway? That would entail piping some antimatter down to where it can potentially do harm, negating some of the advantages of storing it in the nacelles - but it would help with supervising and maintaining the reactor.
A setup where the mixing and annihilation does take place in the engineering hull could well be described as the ship having one very large matter/antimatter reactor - comprising both nacelles in their entirety, plus lots of machinery in the engineering hull. Asking for the location of the reactor would then be a bit like asking for the location of the buoyancy devices in a classic ship, or the location of the lifting surfaces in something like the F-15 or the HL-10.
Timo Saloniemi
A setup where the mixing and annihilation does take place in the engineering hull could well be described as the ship having one very large matter/antimatter reactor - comprising both nacelles in their entirety, plus lots of machinery in the engineering hull. Asking for the location of the reactor would then be a bit like asking for the location of the buoyancy devices in a classic ship, or the location of the lifting surfaces in something like the F-15 or the HL-10.
Timo Saloniemi
This was my assumption upon first seeing ST:TMP, it was only after I saw the cutaway poster that I realized the intent was to have Anti-matter pods at the base of the vertical shaft, which made no sense to me. It seems more logical to have those pods be matter fuel which is then "siphoned" up to the intermix chamber, and have the anti-matter "siphoned" down from the nacelles to meet in the middle, as it were?
It could be argued that part of the reason of having duel hulls in the classic "Connie" configuration in the first place, at least partly, is precisely the added safety factor afforded to the primary hull as a seperate living/working area and potential lifeboat since it is "isolated" if somethng goes wrong with the reactors "down there". This way, there's a double level of compartmental safety, either just the nacelle(s) can be jettisoned and/or the the saucer can seperate from the secondary hull/rest of the ship if need be?
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Well, there is one fly in the ointment here. Actually more than one. 
1: We clearly see that Kryton appearing to manipulate the dilithium matrix and having an effect on the engines in "Elaan of Troyus".
2: Photon torpedoes, presumably anti-matter weapons of some sort, are consistently seen being launched from the lower vortex of the Enterprise's saucer.
What I take away from this is that matter and antimatter fuel are present throughout the ship, although probably in limited quantities in the primary and secondary hulls. (In "Obsession", Spock proposes draining fuel for the bomb from the ship's engines, which seems to vaguely reinforce the idea that the nacelles serve as the primary reservoir of the ship's fuel storage. And maybe it's just me, but I have no problem with at least a majority of both the matter and the antimatter being stored up there.)
So here's what I propose for an arrangement:
NACELLES - where the bulk of the deuterium (or whatever matter fuel they use) and antimatter is stored. These pods also house a string of smaller spherical "pod-lettes" within, which explains the shape of each end of the nacelles. Each podlette would actually be a small, self-contained warp engine, with a power reactor at its core that directly powers the outer podlette warp drive mechanism. In my thinking, a starship needs at least a couple of these podlettes to have a basic functioning warp drive. ("The Doomsday Machine" seems to shed some light on this; Scott assesses the Constellation's warp drive to be "hopeless pile of junk", but Kirk seems intent on getting the ship out of the L-374 system for salvaging. I always wondered what Kirk would've done with the Constellation if they had got her going. I assumed they would get her going under minimal power to either fly her to a repair base or have a portable dock brought to her.) The nacelles would not comprise the whole system, however.
SECONDARY HULL - The warp drive engine room in the secondary hull is the central control system with at least two more reactors (hence the twin turbine-like structures in the middle of the engine room floor). These "control reactors" serve as a buffer and also bleed off excess power for operations in the inhabited hulls. This engine room also serves as an access point for tapping the matter-antimatter reservoirs in the nacelles, and possibly houses a containment unit for dispatching the fuel for shuttlecraft, bombs, torpedo banks and science labs. It's also possible that another matter-fuel reserve is kept here for emergency purposes.
SAUCER - In TOS, the most intense use of ship's torpedoes is shown firing from the saucer. (Defiant in "In a Mirror, Darkly" tried to rectify this.) We can assume that impulse drive uses at least fusion power, and that there are at least three reactors embedded in the saucer. ("Day of the Dove") So perhaps a small anti-matter cache is kept some where in the saucer, mostly for weapons. It's never made clear whether impulse drive is FTL-capable or not, but if it is perhaps the presence of dilithium in an impulse engine room would suggest that these crystals' energy-focusing properties have a use beyond just warp drive.
1: We clearly see that Kryton appearing to manipulate the dilithium matrix and having an effect on the engines in "Elaan of Troyus".
2: Photon torpedoes, presumably anti-matter weapons of some sort, are consistently seen being launched from the lower vortex of the Enterprise's saucer.
What I take away from this is that matter and antimatter fuel are present throughout the ship, although probably in limited quantities in the primary and secondary hulls. (In "Obsession", Spock proposes draining fuel for the bomb from the ship's engines, which seems to vaguely reinforce the idea that the nacelles serve as the primary reservoir of the ship's fuel storage. And maybe it's just me, but I have no problem with at least a majority of both the matter and the antimatter being stored up there.)
So here's what I propose for an arrangement:
NACELLES - where the bulk of the deuterium (or whatever matter fuel they use) and antimatter is stored. These pods also house a string of smaller spherical "pod-lettes" within, which explains the shape of each end of the nacelles. Each podlette would actually be a small, self-contained warp engine, with a power reactor at its core that directly powers the outer podlette warp drive mechanism. In my thinking, a starship needs at least a couple of these podlettes to have a basic functioning warp drive. ("The Doomsday Machine" seems to shed some light on this; Scott assesses the Constellation's warp drive to be "hopeless pile of junk", but Kirk seems intent on getting the ship out of the L-374 system for salvaging. I always wondered what Kirk would've done with the Constellation if they had got her going. I assumed they would get her going under minimal power to either fly her to a repair base or have a portable dock brought to her.) The nacelles would not comprise the whole system, however.
SECONDARY HULL - The warp drive engine room in the secondary hull is the central control system with at least two more reactors (hence the twin turbine-like structures in the middle of the engine room floor). These "control reactors" serve as a buffer and also bleed off excess power for operations in the inhabited hulls. This engine room also serves as an access point for tapping the matter-antimatter reservoirs in the nacelles, and possibly houses a containment unit for dispatching the fuel for shuttlecraft, bombs, torpedo banks and science labs. It's also possible that another matter-fuel reserve is kept here for emergency purposes.
SAUCER - In TOS, the most intense use of ship's torpedoes is shown firing from the saucer. (Defiant in "In a Mirror, Darkly" tried to rectify this.) We can assume that impulse drive uses at least fusion power, and that there are at least three reactors embedded in the saucer. ("Day of the Dove") So perhaps a small anti-matter cache is kept some where in the saucer, mostly for weapons. It's never made clear whether impulse drive is FTL-capable or not, but if it is perhaps the presence of dilithium in an impulse engine room would suggest that these crystals' energy-focusing properties have a use beyond just warp drive.
Sorry, but storing the ship's fuel supply is big giant "SHOOT ME" nacelles is an absolutely idiotic idea.
Jefferies' idea of putting the engines way out on those struts had nothing to do with the fuel being there, it had to do with the warp engines being big, powerful, and therefore dangerous, and thus needed to be kept at arm's length. Nothing to do with the fuel, but everything to do with what they DID, along with making it easier to swap out one unit for another.
It also makes more sense that anything put way the hell out on big long struts, i.e., inaccessible, be as low maintenance as possible. That says to me that the only "bulk of" anything that's gonna be out there is warp coils and plasma injectors (few, if any, moving parts). Main power, fuel supply, and delivery systems need to be immediately accessible, not just monitored but able to get at the systems themselves directly (like maybe you might have to cut off the antimatter feed to the main reactor to stop a runaway reaction that's forced your ship to accelerate to Warp 14.1), and in the secondary hull is the easiest way to do that.
Jefferies' idea of putting the engines way out on those struts had nothing to do with the fuel being there, it had to do with the warp engines being big, powerful, and therefore dangerous, and thus needed to be kept at arm's length. Nothing to do with the fuel, but everything to do with what they DID, along with making it easier to swap out one unit for another.
It also makes more sense that anything put way the hell out on big long struts, i.e., inaccessible, be as low maintenance as possible. That says to me that the only "bulk of" anything that's gonna be out there is warp coils and plasma injectors (few, if any, moving parts). Main power, fuel supply, and delivery systems need to be immediately accessible, not just monitored but able to get at the systems themselves directly (like maybe you might have to cut off the antimatter feed to the main reactor to stop a runaway reaction that's forced your ship to accelerate to Warp 14.1), and in the secondary hull is the easiest way to do that.
I fail to see how storing antimatter in the base of the secondary hull (or anywhere in there) is any safer. It is, after all, a much bigger target.
Something I had been working on in the Fan Art section taking in account for a multi-core reactor system Works pretty much for episodes where only the nacelles are mentioned or just the one where the secondary hull since not all cores need to be put in jeopardy at the same time and you can interchangeably call it a reactor or multiple reactors 
Works pretty much for episodes where only the nacelles are mentioned or just the one where the secondary hull since not all cores need to be put in jeopardy at the same time and you can interchangeably call it a reactor or multiple reactors
Only idiotic if one uses the inapropriate "battleship" anology and not the more correct one of "exploratory cruiser", this is Star Trek, not Star Wars after all. And no more idiotic than exposing the engines themselves to attack? Besides, this criticism ignores multiple onscreen referances to "anti-matter nacelles". The fact that we have this "insider" knowledge, yet we are still here debating whether the nacelles in fact contain fuel, just goes to show that your average alien skipper isn't going to be any more in the know (and considerably less so) than the rest of us about the function(s) or content of those two long cigar shaped thingies.
Yes, but what are these warp engines powered by? matter/anti-matter reactions! And like all engines, the reaction of the fuel (in this case with its 100% conversion to energy) takes place inside the engine(s). And what is a space warp? It's a close cousin to a black hole or singularity, where the gravitational forces are so strong not even light can escape! Therefore it's no suprise it takes M/A annihilation to create such a beastie! And it only makes sense to take advantage of these tremendous gravitational forces produced by a warp engine (coils?) to contain this tremendous explosion of M/A. What I'm suggesting is an incremental step by step relationship between the intermix formula and warp factors/fields.
Also, not only does it make sense to keep the fuel as close to the engines as possible (a standard engineering design principle in the real world) but again, we're not just dealing with any fuel, that should it leak, might merely make a mess, or leave you stranded on the side of the road, we're dealing with a highly volatile fuel that reacts with the structure of the ship itself! If the warp reactor (coils?) are set to "idle" when not used for propulsion, then the resulting low level space warp/gravity field makes the ideal "container" for the anti-matter fuel, so keeping it in the nacelles is the most effeciant and practical and safe design.
These references to "warp coils and plasma injectors" are TNGisms and played no part in Jefferies thinking process or the TOS design, All we know is the nacelles are reffered to as "propulsion units", so it is unfair to evoke later techno-babble. And the fuel supply doesn't necessarily need to be emmediately accessible, only refueling ports and shut off valves etc. The gas tank in your car is not emmediately accessible, yet it presents no major problems.
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The gas tank isn't located in the engine compartment, either.
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