Engineering -- Warp Engines?

[Wingsley]

But if you recall "The Savage Curtain", Kirk tries to order Scott to "disengage nacelles, jettison if possible". In other words, if an antimatter containment failure for the ship's major fuel stores is imminent, the way to keep an explosion of those fuel stores from jeopardizing the inhabited hulls is to simply isolate the nacelles. Then, if the nacelles explode, they won't take the rest of the starship with it. If they don't explode and the crisis passes, the nacelles can be recovered and repaired later.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Another of those the-threat-is-on-the-planet situations, so just what was going on with the ship wasn't fully thought through. What the hell is "the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity" supposed to mean in the first frakking place?

 

[Mytran]

Perhaps that the stability of the M/AM containment fields is in proximity of the red zone on the gauge?

Of course, the statement is vague enough so that several interpretations are possible.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Nothing in there that requires the fuel stores to be in the nacelles...

 

[Mytran]

So why jettison the nacelles then? There had to be a reason, as Kirk ordered it.

 

[Captain Robert April]

What makes you think that line was any better thought out than the "red zone proximity" bit?

 

[Mytran]

Does it matter if the lines of dialogue were especially well thought out at the time, in an in-depth technical sense? The important thing was that they conveyed a feeling of danger and urgency and in that they succeeded perfectly. The technical nuances are for the fans to puzzle over later, should they so wish.

Naturally some tech-lines are easier than others to fit into a general theory of Trek science, but does that follow that we should pick and choose which bits of dialogue to accept? Maybe, but I prefer the more holistic approach and try to retain as much as possible: indeed, I can find little in TOS that doesn't work (within the series).

In any case, this is a discussion thread about the Warp Engines - why disregard a line that deals specifically with that subject? All adds to the richness of the overall flavour, IMO

 

[Captain Robert April]

The only "specifics" that snatch of dialogue deal with is the ship is gonna blow up unless Kirk and Spock play along down on the planet. It's technobabble at its worst, because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Wingsley]

I would have to conditionally disagree on that point.

Take the scene in "Elaan of Troyus" when Kirk orders Scott to restore warp power. Scott complains that the power is fluctuating because of the Troyan dilithium crystals. "She won't steady down!" Scott exclaims as the readout displays at his station intermittently dim. You can regard this technobabble theatric as nonsensical if you wish, but it works in the scene to depict a significant turning point in the plot. (Actually, the whole Kryton sabotage subplot has some credibility problems overall. But that's another discussion.)

It's the same with the nacelle-jettison order in "The Savage Curtain". Kirk dares to defy the Excalbian threat by ordering Scott and Spock to work together on diffusing the situation through a nacelle jettison. And then Yarnek cuts the signal. Again, cheesy and silly but effective.

People have argued in the past that some over-the-top moments in TOS (and subsequent movies and series) are best left ignored, like the whole "Spock's Brain" thing. I can understand this.

Buuuuuuuut... in the case of "The Savage Curtain" and "Elaan of Troyus" , are we really adrift in "Spock's Brain" territory here? I don't think so.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The line in question from The Savage Curtain is:

KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible. Mister Spock, assist them. Advise and analyse. Scotty? Scotty?

I've never been convinced that this line is not simply another way of ordering saucer separation.

 

[Wingsley]

^ I suppose you could loosely argue that Kirk's "Savage Curtain" order amounts to saucer separation. Except that in "The Apple", Kirk muses that he doesn't care if Scott has to "crack out of there with the main section if you have to" which seems to show Kirk suggesting a similar course of action more directly.

Here's the transcription of the dialogue between Kirk and Scott in "The Apple":


KIRK: Status report, Scotty.

[Planet surface]

SCOTT: No change, Captain. The orbit is decaying along computed lines. No success with the warp drive. We're going down and we can't stop it.

[Hut]

KIRK: I'm sick of hearing that word can't. Get that ship out of there.

[Bridge]

SCOTT: Sir, we're doing everything within engineering reason.

[Hut]

KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!

[Bridge]

SCOTT: Sir, I'm going to switch over everything but the life-support systems and boost the impulse power, but that's just about as dangerous.

[Hut]

KIRK: Do it. Kirk out.


Thanks for the transcription link, BTW.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I would have to conditionally disagree on that point.

Take the scene in "Elaan of Troyus" when Kirk orders Scott to restore warp power. Scott complains that the power is fluctuating because of the Troyan dilithium crystals. "She won't steady down!" Scott exclaims as the readout displays at his station intermittently dim. You can regard this technobabble theatric as nonsensical if you wish, but it works in the scene to depict a significant turning point in the plot. (Actually, the whole Kryton sabotage subplot has some credibility problems overall. But that's another discussion.)

On the contrary, the situation in "Elaan of Troyius" actually reinforces the concept of a central M/ARC feeding power through the dilithium crystals out to the nacelles. The irregular shapes of the crystals was playing havoc with the energy flow (which is exactly how both Spock and Scott described the situation). Earlier, Scotty makes reference to a singular antimatter reactor. We can only assume that when Scotty managed to defuse the bomb that Kryton rigged up, he burned out the dilithium crystal articulation matrix in the process, hence the need for Elaan's necklace.

Like I said upthread, when resolving the situation hinged on fixing what was wrong with the ship, we got pretty specific tech references, like "Elaan of Troyius" and "That Which Survives", whereas when the resolution depended on Kirk making the power mad computer down on the planet destroy itself, the writers threw out something about the nacelles going boom and moved on.

It's the same with the nacelle-jettison order in "The Savage Curtain". Kirk dares to defy the Excalbian threat by ordering Scott and Spock to work together on diffusing the situation through a nacelle jettison. And then Yarnek cuts the signal. Again, cheesy and silly but effective.

In the case of "The Apple", with the warp drive down and the ship being dragged down by Vaal's tractor beam, the nacelles (easily replaced at the nearest starbase) and possibly entire secondary hull was dead weight (the "main section" Kirk referred to being the primary hull), presenting Kirk with a last-ditch option of dumping said dead weight with the hope that the unencumbered saucer might be able to escape.

People have argued in the past that some over-the-top moments in TOS (and subsequent movies and series) are best left ignored, like the whole "Spock's Brain" thing. I can understand this.

Buuuuuuuut... in the case of "The Savage Curtain" and "Elaan of Troyus" , are we really adrift in "Spock's Brain" territory here? I don't think so.

With the "Abe Lincoln In Space" episode, I'd say we're in the same zip code.

 

[TIN_MAN]

While it's always good to keep one foot in the real world in discussions like this, and keep in mind what the writers may have been thinking (or not as the case may be) at any given time, I think such speculation should take a back seat to actual clear references in the show itself.

We have several specific references to "anti-matter nacelles" in TOS and TAS, and if we remember that the term "anti-matter pods" was often used interchangeably with "anti-matter nacelle" (sometimes in the same sentence/discussion) then the number of references goes up considerably. And it does no good to point out that the term "pods" in later "TNG era" trek referred to something else, because it had nothing to do with TOS/TAS.

Now, where does this leave us? Well, we need not assume that anti-matter is stored in the nacelles, however likely that may seem (to some), but clearly, matter/anti-matter is in the nacelles doing something for some reason; presumeably, powering the warp drive.

Thinking outside the box for a moment, has it ever been considered that perhaps the main dilithium/reactor "core" actually creates the anti-matter that is fed to the nacelles, where it is then utilized or possibly stored? Is there anything in TOS/TAS to contradict this possibility? In other words maybe we've had it backwards, maybe dilithium doesn't so much moderate the reaction of M/A-M reactions as it does create anti-matter by converting matter fuel in some way? Then the resulting A-M products could be sent to the nacelles to mix with matter, and the resulting energy used to power the warp drive (coils)?

Such a design would not necessarily be inconsistant with later trek tech either? We know in the real world the products of M/A-M reaction is roughly 50/50, half being gamma rays and neutrinos and half being electrons and positrons. Perhaps then in (TNG) trek, an initial M/A-M reaction, "moderated" by dilithium occurs, in which the 50% consisting of gamma rays/neutrinos are used to power the ships systems, and the 50% consisting of electrons/positrons are seperated and fed to the nacelles as the "warp plasma" we've heard about?

So perhaps the "plasma injectors" in the nacelles then, are two of a kind, electron injectors and positron injectors (hence M/A-M nacelles), and they introduce this M/A-M in the open cavity we've seen, where the resulting anihilations are mostly contained by the warp field, but allowing energy absorption to the coils? Perhaps the coils are initially charged to a low level operating capacity by fusion reactors, also presumably in the nacelles, and then "ratcheted up" with M/A-M energy for successive warp factors?

Sorry for the long ramble, I just put this all together, so haven't thought all this through completly, so I may be overlooking something, but I thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to ruminate over.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Consider this: Would it be out of bounds to refer to the engine in a car as a "gasoline engine"?

Is the gasoline stored in the engine? No. It needs gasoline to operate, but the fuel source is well away from the engine. Especially with modern fuel injection setups.

Therefore, it is no more erroneous for the nacelles to be referred to as "antimatter nacelles" while there may not be any actual antimatter present.

 

[Wingsley]

TIN_MAN's "out of the box" speculation presents a very interesting possibility.

Consider this: the only time I remember ever hearing of a starship being in danger of running out of fuel was in "The Dommsday Machine", when the Enterprise was playing cat-and-mouse with the alien machine on impulse power. I do not recall another starship in deep space at warp ever having been said to be in danger of running out of fuel.

And in "The Menagerie, Part I", the Enterprise's computer identifies the Starbase 11 shuttlecraft as using an "ion propulsion system". We see starship-style nacelles on Class F shuttlecraft consistently, and there is the suggestion that these craft are capable of at least limited warp speed, but we never hear of them carrying a substantial antimatter payload. "The Galileo Seven" makes it clear that in order to get off the ground Scott must drain phasers of their energy for "fuel", but how that works is never made clear. When Scott laments "we have no fuel", he said there was a leak. Surely the Galileo did not leak antimatter!

Could it be that the matter-antimatter reaction, while an essential part of Federation FTL drive technology, is but a cog (or cogs) in a much larger machine? Perhaps antimatter is generated aboard ship as a result of some other power source, such as zero-point energy, that is tapped by an apparatus that includes dilithium crystals. The crystals draw the energy from a zero-point source, the raw super-energy to then used to convert stored hydrogen into antimatter for use in the warp engines and for weapons like photon torpedoes.

This may seem like an elaborate way of powering and propulsion, but it would mean that (1: starships could have theoretically unlimited warp-speed range, barring maintenance and supply and personnel concerns, and (2: starships would not need to store huge amounts of antimatter in order to embark upon a deep-space voyage; they would only have enough on hand to power the needs of the warp drive and weapons for the moment, and (3: this would mean that there would be enough antimatter to present a safety (containment) risk in "The Savage Curtain" and "Space Seed", but it's not like a starship orbiting Earth or any other inhabited planet would ever present a danger to the inhabitants in the event of a catastrophic accident.

This would also dovetail very well with Spock's statement that an "ounce" of antimatter "could be drained from the ship's engines" for the bomb used in "Obsession". Antimatter would be accessed from the ship's propulsion system if it were generated there in the first place.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Something I forgot to mention in my long essay above; we need to define our terms better. We're getting tripped up on semantics here, definitions from wikipedia follow...

"The nacelle is a cover housing (separate from the fuselage) that holds engines, fuel, or equipment on an airplane. The covering is typically aerodynamically shaped."

Since Matt Jefferies was a pilot, this most likely was the definition he was thinking of?

"An engine or motor is a machine designed to convert energy into useful mechanical (kinetic) motion."

In treknology as we have it, the nacelles are the propulsion units, and it is further specified (in TNG era) that "warp coils" are the means of this propulsion, powered directly via the energy or "warp plasma" from the "plasma injectors". Put simply, the nacelles are the engines.

Now, the warp reactor core, or power plant may be something altogether different, or it may all be part of the same integrated design, or both, for these are not mutually exclusive.

But, as I said up thread, all engines contain the fuel/reactant as a basic design element, without this, it's just a generator, not an engine. And it is also standard to put the fuel as close as possible to the engines, that's why airplanes have tanks in the wings (where the engine nacelles are) not in the fuselage.

And when we're dealing with a fuel source as dangerous as anti-matter, all the more reason to keep it stored as far away from the crew as possible! Therefore the terms "matter/anti-matter nacelle", "matter/anti-matter engine" "matter/anti-matter drive" etc. are all synonymous.

 

[blssdwlf]

TIN_MAN's speculation would go towards Kirk's line about the ship's power regenerating and thus range not being a long-term problem in "The Mark of Gideon" and connects back to the times when the ship's main drive was knocked out and had to be regenerated ("WNMHGB", "The Naked Time"). It would seem that the ship has an infinite fuel power source so long as the dilithium crystals haven't broken down

Adding to the speculation, the TOS-E would mix a starting amount of M/AM to create energy to be amplified through dilithium which in turn store the energy for immediate or later use and when used creates more M and AM as a side product.

"The Naked Time" ties the input or starting fuel to regenerate the engines as warmed up matter and antimatter. "The Alternative Factor", "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius" makes lithium/dilithium crystals critical to (or the heart of) the power generation of the ship even if antimatter fuel was available. And "By Any Other Name" would suggest that a multi-thousand year trip to another galaxy that fuel was not a concern of the crew.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I think that's stretching things a tad...

 

[TIN_MAN]

Combining Wingsley's and blssdwlf's speculations, we might suggest that somehow the dilithium crystals tap the zero point "infinite" energy of the "vacuum fluctuations" in space, to create anti-matter? This would explain why it's such a sought after commodity and so vital to warp drive starships, being the only known substance capable of such a feat?

 

[Wingsley]

"Where No Man Has Gone Before"'s log entries are also interesting. Spock tells Kirk "Recommendation one: there's a planet a few light-days away from here, Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines." In a subsequent log entry, Kirk described Delta Vega as: "Desolate, but rich in crystal and minerals. Kelso's task: transport down with a repair party, try to regenerate the main engines, save the ship." And later on, Kirk's log reflects Kelso's progress: "Note commendations on Lieutenant Kelso and the engineering staff. In orbit above us, the engines of the Enterprise are almost fully regenerated."

If those mysterious crystals were part of some zero-point energy tapping apparatus used to generate antimatter (or even deuterium with it, for that matter), then adapting Delta Vega's power packs would amount to restoring the Enterprise's warp drive. Note that if we follow the TNG philosophy of regarding lithium/dilithium as nothing but some kind of focusing lens for a matter-antimatter reactor, a cracking factory that nobody bothers to visit would not need power packs that use them.

And in "Elaan of Tryous", Kryton manipulates the crystals and other machinery (the zero-point machinery?) during his sabotage raid. Note that Kryton manipulates the crystals and machinery while they are still in operation. The machinery never stops while he manipulates it. The crystals continue to glow, even while exposed to the atmosphere. Perhaps those crystals aren't being used in focusing a matter-antimatter reaction, but rather the turbine-like assembly in the center of the engine room's floor is the ship's zero-point energy apparatus that powers the M/AM generation equipment.