Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Mres_was_framed!]

Thanks for the info.

Depending on where the FP was designed to be viewed from, it could be up to 120 feet long - still easily contained within a 417' wide saucer (947' long ship). The trouble is, the FP unit was repeatedly filmed from angles that belied the optical illusion aspect of the set, which is why Bllsdwlf decided to represent it in the (as per real life) more triangular design.

Good to hear that it would fit into the saucer, since that makes sense and would work for other ships that use the same saucer but have no secondary hull, assuming those exist.

Would 120 feet be the maximum and would that fit between the deflector and the nacelle struts in the secondary hull.

Also, how about the distance between the forward nacelle endcaps and the inner grilles of the nacelles?

 

[blssdwlf]

I tend to filter my interpretations of Trekology through both what I've experienced in RL and in what I have read. The link below details the changes to USS Texas (BB-35) when she went from 14 coal-fired boilers to 6 oil-fired ones.
http://battleshiptexas.info/images/BoilerRoom/BoilerRoom.html
Please take the time to note not only the changes to the boiler rooms but to the surrounding spaces as "real estate" was reclaimed. The idea that the interiors of ships are somehow rigid and unchangeable is erroneous. Happens all the time in RL and I would expect Trek ships to be the same.

I totally agree and coincidentally the Battleship Texas plus USS Cavalla, USS Stewart and USS Lexington* are where I also got some of my ideas from You definitely get a sense of size and design from touring those ships.

*There is a pattern there

If we could answer this question, it could be very enlightening: Would that version of that structure actually fit into either hull or the nacelles? This might be right up your alley, @blssdwlf

The non-forced-perspective structure could go in the primary or secondary hull of a 947' Enterprise. You just have to watch out for the undercut in the primary hull because of the height of the structure so you're kinda limited to placing it more in the center of the hull. The secondary hull there is more freedom to place it because of the cigar hull shape.

 

[Henoch]

Robert Comsol's stuff was cool in a whimsical kind of way

I loved his approach to fit all actual on-screen sets into the Hull including gobs of curved corridors in the Engineering Hull. With scene intercuts, framing, camera lenses and angles, squinting and blinders, you can almost image anything you want on corridor placement, doors and side passages. One thing in TOS is that we usually only see corridors and rooms with control consoles and other GNDN's. Rarely do we ever get a peek behind the walls and see actual machines like engines, reactors, phasers, deflectors, etc. They have to take up a lot of room, too. I had to put at least one small curved corridor in the engineering hull complete with pressure zones and "white" space for that big machinery. There's room to stretch the pipe structure back the full 120 feet, but it can't be that long since there are only five pipe layers. Here's two levels of one more concept, (note my ship is not to any exact scale, hence, "concept"):
Engineering Lower Level:

Engineering Upper Level:

 

[Mytran]

I loved his approach to fit all actual on-screen sets into the Hull including gobs of curved corridors in the Engineering Hull. With scene intercuts, framing, camera lenses and angles, squinting and blinders, you can almost image anything you want on corridor placement, doors and side passages. One thing in TOS is that we usually only see corridors and rooms with control consoles and other GNDN's. Rarely do we ever get a peek behind the walls and see actual machines like engines, reactors, phasers, deflectors, etc. They have to take up a lot of room, too. I had to put at least one small curved corridor in the engineering hull complete with pressure zones and "white" space for that big machinery. There's room to stretch the pipe structure back the full 120 feet, but it can't be that long since there are only five pipe layers. Here's two levels of one more concept, (note my ship is not to any exact scale, hence, "concept"):

I do love me some deck layout plans! These are all very crisp and clean looking, too

The curved corridor does stand out as an oddity though. One thing that Robert_Comsol attempted to do was provide some sort of structural excuse for why there's curved corridors of ANY sort in the Engineering Hull - that's why he wrapped them around the yellow circle at the bottom of the ship (which I appreciate you can't do in your setup). Ideally, there should be some of odd shaped machinery that "has" to be there, forcing the corridor to curve around it.

There's room to stretch the pipe structure back the full 120 feet, but it can't be that long since there are only five pipe layers.

Remember though that if the structure was laid out in a non FP manner then the fifth pipe would be right out near the back of the area, around 100 feet or so from the Engine Room grill.

 

[Henoch]

I liked Comsol's round corridor around the big yellow spot. If I use the full 100+ foot pipes, then I need a bigger boat.

 

[Timo]

Using a round corridor setup around a giant spherical warp reactor in ST Into Darkness style would make great sense, aesthetically at least. But also in holistic in-universe terms where key bits of warp machinery from a given era are all alike unless otherwise shown...

Naturally, the corridors would not wrap around this extremely dangerous piece of hardware in a spherical fashion, but in a cylindrar one, allowing for downwards ejection. This in turn would leave space around the lower half of the sphere for all sorts of support functions, with a big hatch underneath; I could well see the engineers deciding to stow other ejectables there, such as recorder markers, agri-carriers, ultraviolet satellites or gravitic mines. All built around a common bus as needed, of course... The upper and lower curving corridors could never hope to go around the sphere in continuous circles, and as we see, even the centermost would be hard pressed to achieve that - but there's no actual need for complete circles as such. Just for hugging this big cavity with the big sphere so that little space is wasted on that side of the corridor.

Yet why the single corridor curving in the opposite direction just outside the room that houses the floor doodad for feeding dilithium into that big sphere? You know, the only one we really have to believe in? Well, the machinery behind the navigational deflector / main sensor might be equally bulky and possibly in equal need of physical shielding. And if there is one general principle about starship corridors that we need to bow to, it is that none of them are straight! Every walk from A to B involves at least two 90 degree turns, regardless of A and B. So the corridor designer bows to some higher logic than mere movement of labor force. And the needs of man being enslaved to the needs of machine ought to ring true to anybody obsessing about naval adventures or militaria.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Bedtime Story: Scotty and Tale of the Two Engine Rooms

Season 1, Scotty spent most of his time either in the saucer Impulse Engine Room (IER) or on the bridge. The IER is in the heart of the Engineering Department Section and so are their offices. The Warp Drive was a mature technology on the ship an didn't require his personal attention as much. The IER and bridge has monitoring and communication consoles to fully keep an eye on the ship's warp drive. Scott's took his role more as a manager of his department, and trusted his engineers in the field. Speculating, he must have a top-notch engineering officer in the Warp Drive Engine Room (WDER), and maybe no one or someone new or weak in the IER, therefore, that's why he managed from IER. Also, the trip down to the WDER was longer and he wanted to be closer to the bridge.

Season 2 and 3, Scotty spent most of his time either in the secondary hull Warp Drive Engine Room (WDER) or on the bridge. Speculating, his trusted top-notch engineering officer got promoted off the ship, and now he needs to spend more time in WDER waiting on his replacement or managing the new or weak replacement. Additionally, the warp drive engines and dilithium crystal converter assembly may have gotten a major upgrade, so he needs to spend time fine tuning and finishing the million little things that weren't done at the ship yard. Also, WDER was having more breakage/sabotage during these two seasons. He is able to fully monitor and communicate with the ship's impulse engines and saucer power controls which are now mature and trouble free. Therefore, this is why he managed from the WDER. The longer turbolift ride was a minor annoyance, only.

 

[BK613]

I have no problem with the Enterprise getting upgrades and changes in technology over the 3 years we see her on screen. Heck, Scotty and his team are probably tinkering so much in some areas of the ship I doubt it would look exactly the same from one week to the next!

The point is that it's more than minor or cosmetic changes being represented by my link. To quote from the page(emphasis added):

The mid-ship area was gutted from the main deck to hold. The change also completely altered the uptake system inside the ship and a replacement of the two exterior uptakes with a new single uptake.

The forward boiler room was eliminated with most of the vacated space converted into electronic spaces (Plot Room on 2nd platform and Hold,, Interior Communications on 1st platform, and Main Communications on 3rd deck). Boiler Room #2 forward bulkhead was moved forward 14 feet.

The boiler rooms were now better protected. The new boilers were installed farther above the keel than the original boilers to provide a third hull plate on the bottom. On the sides, the number of bulkheads was increased to six, with the addition of two new ones. One of the bulkheads was the torpedo blister on the exterior and the other was gained with the subdivision of the fuel tanks next to boiler rooms into two compartments.

If shipbuilders a hundred years ago could make such wholesale changes to the interior of an existing ship, then Starfleet doing so three hundred years hence ought to be child's play in comparison.

I do think the S1 and S2 Engine Rooms are unique locations though, because they are so fundamentally different in a structural sense.

If you review the thread from 9 years ago, you'll see that I also have advocated for multiple engine rooms. I am just not wedded to the idea to the exclusion of all else. In the end, we as fans balance what we see on screen with what we consider common sense. For example, I for one am not going to be the guy who advocates that there is a different Engine Room for every time the ER "island" is turned the other way round.

However, this in itself not necessarily a problem as Naked Time and Omega Glory both indicate two or more Engine Rooms.

Oh, don't get me started on the differences between individual ships of the same class.

I totally agree and coincidentally the Battleship Texas plus USS Cavalla, USS Stewart and USS Lexington* are where I also got some of my ideas from You definitely get a sense of size and design from touring those ships.

Probably contributes to my liking of your stuff. It's a Matt Jefferies approach to ground stuff in what you know.

*There is a pattern there

Yes, along the Texas coast. I myself have been to USS Texas. When I was serving, I always made it a point to visit such maritime museums as time and duty permitted. Highlights include USS New Jersey*, Constitution, Star of India, USS Bowfin and the Arizona memorial.

I liked Comsol's round corridor around the big yellow spot.

The curved corridor could be a legacy of the engineering area from Pike's time.


*(Technically, not a museum but a tour as she was ramping to recommissioning in 1982.)

 

[Henoch]

Well, the machinery behind the navigational deflector / main sensor might be equally bulky and possibly in equal need of physical shielding.

In season 1, I think they put a turbolift at the end of that straight corridor across from the engine room. In season 2+, they put a yellow door at the end of that corridor (never saw it used) which would imply an engineering space, possibly for the huge and dangerous deflector/sensor machinery (think about the extreme electromagnetic hazards of that much beaming power), hence the semi-circular path around to the sides of that area. It's a dead end at the bow, so, maybe a good spot for a turbolift.

Naturally, the corridors would not wrap around this extremely dangerous piece of hardware in a spherical fashion, but in a cylindrar one, allowing for downwards ejection.

If a M/AM reactor and/or the antimatter pod is directly beneath the floor gizmo in the engine room, then the round corridors would be on levels below the engine room, and not needed on levels above.
So, curved corridors in the middle decks at the bow of the ship for deflectors/sensors, and curved corridors in the bottom decks round the yellow spot for M/AM reactor/antimatter pod equipment stack. Nice.

 

[Mytran]

Bedtime Story: Scotty and Tale of the Two Engine Rooms

Season 1, Scotty spent most of his time either in the saucer Impulse Engine Room (IER) or on the bridge. The IER is in the heart of the Engineering Department Section and so are their offices. The Warp Drive was a mature technology on the ship an didn't require his personal attention as much. The IER and bridge has monitoring and communication consoles to fully keep an eye on the ship's warp drive. Scott's took his role more as a manager of his department, and trusted his engineers in the field. Speculating, he must has a top-notch engineering officer in the Warp Drive Engine Room (WDER), and maybe no one or someone new or weak in the IER, therefore, that's why he managed from IER. Also, the trip down to the WDER was longer and he wanted to be closer to the bridge.

Season 2 and 3, Scotty spent most of his time either in the secondary hull Warp Drive Engine Room (WDER) or on the bridge. Speculating, his trusted top-notch engineering officer got promoted off the ship, and now he needs to spend more time in WDER waiting on his replacement or managing the new or weak replacement. Additionally, the warp drive engines and dilithium crystal converter assembly may have gotten a major upgrade, so he needs to spend time fine tuning and finishing the million little things that weren't done at the ship yard. Also, WDER was having more breakage/sabotage during these two seasons. He is able to fully monitor and communicate with the ship's impulse engines and saucer power controls which are now mature and trouble free. Therefore, this is why he managed from the WDER. The longer turbolift ride was a minor annoyance, only.

This is the best alternative theory I've read since the one where Scotty's motivation to move into the secondary hull Engine Room was caused by how many times it was taken over in Season One and the ship nearly destroyed as a result. Khan's attempt was probably the last straw!

In season 1, I think they put a turbolift at the end of that straight corridor across from the engine room. In season 2+, they put a yellow door at the end of that corridor (never saw it used) which would imply an engineering space, possibly for the huge and dangerous deflector/sensor machinery (think about the extreme electromagnetic hazards of that much beaming power), hence the semi-circular path around to the sides of that area. It's a dead end at the bow, so, maybe a good spot for a turbolift.

The yellow door at the end of the straight corridor opposite the Engine Room door was yellow in S1 and S2 (scenes from Court Martial)

The turbolift was at the end of the curved corridor in S1, an arrangement which stayed in S2

The point is that it's more than minor or cosmetic changes being represented by my link.
...
If you review the thread from 9 years ago, you'll see that I also have advocated for multiple engine rooms. I am just not wedded to the idea to the exclusion of all else. In the end, we as fans balance what we see on screen with what we consider common sense. For example, I for one am not going to be the guy who advocates that there is a different Engine Room for every time the ER "island" is turned the other way round.

Fair points. But while it is trivially easy to relocate a few stage flats, it is far more work to completely reshape the core engine facility whilst changing relatively little else in the surrounding area. I realise that you are not advocating for this sort of single Engine Room setup (or at least now I do; it's been 9 years!) so I think we are more or less on the same page here.
To elaborate on my thinking, the principle reason why I wanted the forward Engine Room in the saucer is because I wanted to include the correctly curved corridor seen in Ultimate Computer (which would be impossible except in a very large Enterprise). I do realise that is a requirement that wouldn't bother most fans however, so in reality a minimum of 2 Engine Rooms is probably fine, albeit ones that got regular modifications throughout the series run.

Want an in-series example of a direct modification to the Season 1 Engine Room? Okay!

The number of horizontal pipes behind the screen goes from 2 in Naked Time...

...to 3 or 4 pipes in Court Martial. Fortunately this happened when the ship was in for repairs at a starbase, more than justifying the change IMO

 

[Henoch]

Fortunately this happened when the ship was in for repairs at a starbase, more than justifying the change IMO

I remember it was three layers of pipes in both, only in the Naked Time they were lower hidden by the wall, and in Court Martial, they were raise up on a support. Still, an engineering change. My head cannon has the Enterprise needing repair and upgrades immediately after the Balance of Terror. The ship took some series damage from the nuke and the phasers proved unreliable, and the ship didn't have photon torpedoes yet:

SPOCK: Nuclear device of some kind, sir. Our phasers detonated it less than one hundred metres away.
KIRK: Ship damage?
SPOCK: Mainly overloads and circuit burnouts.
KIRK: Weapons status?
SCOTT [OC]: We've only the forward phaser room, Captain.​

Looking at stardates, Balance took place in 1709.2, and the next episode stardate is Squire in 2124.5 which is 415.3 stardates or as I estimate 151.6 days or ~5 month layover. After that layover, note that the phasers never failed again and photon torpedoes were first mentioned and used. A minor pipe adjustment was made, too. Note that the label ID changed for the 1st row of horizontal pipes, but the second row the label is the same. Maybe a system power reroute.

 

[Mytran]

I remember it was three layers of pipes in both, only in the Naked Time they were lower hidden by the wall, and in Court Martial, they were raise up on a support. Still, an engineering change.

Yes, the whole tube assembly was jacked up. Compare it to the corner of the power unit thingy on the right. I couldn't tell what was under the 3rd pipe (some sort of support bar) but was definintely not visible in Naked Time or Enemy Within.

Looking at stardates, Balance took place in 1709.2, and the next episode stardate is Squire in 2124.5 which is 415.3 stardates or as I estimate 151.6 days or ~5 month layover. After that layover, note that the phasers never failed again and photon torpedoes were first mentioned and used. A minor pipe adjustment was made, too. Note that the label ID changed for the 1st row of horizontal pipes, but the second row the label is the same. Maybe a system power reroute.

I usually prefer Production Order instead of Stardate Order when it comes to examining the development of the sets, but as the Engine Room is so infrequently seen and as Court Martial takes place on 2947.3 it works just as well, either way.
Broadcast Order? Eh, not so much.

 

[Henoch]

I usually prefer Production Order instead of Stardate Order when it comes to examining the development of the sets, but as the Engine Room is so infrequently seen and as Court Martial takes place on 2947.3 it works just as well, either way.
Broadcast Order? Eh, not so much.

The repair layover immediately after BoT works for all three viewing orders with no conflict:

Stardate Order:
1. 1704.2 The Naked Time (low pipes)
2. 1709.2 Balance of Terror (damage)
3. ~1750 Repair and Upgrade Layover
4. 2947.3 Court Martial (high pipes)
5. 3045.6 Arena (1st mention of Photon Torp.)​

Production Order:
1. #7 The Naked Time (low pipes)
2. #9 Balance of Terror (damage)
3. #9+ Repair and Upgrade Layover
4. #15 Court Martial (high pipes)
5. #19 Arena (1st mention of Photon Torp.)​

Broadcast Order:
1. 1x04 The Naked Time (low pipes)
2. 1x14 Balance of Terror (damage)
3. 1x14+ Repair and Upgrade Layover
4. 1x18 Arena (1st mention of Photon Torp.)
5. 1x20 Court Martial (high pipes)​

 

[Mytran]

I was thinking more of a long layover (such as in your example) but I suppose in broadcast order it could just as easily be a couple of smaller ones:

1. After BOT, a refit to upgrade the antiquated weapon systems
2. Just prior to TIY a layover at Cygnet 14 is specifically mentioned in the script. In addition to replacing the computer's voice they also jacked up the engine tube structure, who's foundations had significant sagging

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

RE: The curved corridor near engineering

Perhaps, the only way to fit a corridor in that section of the secondary hull was to place the bulkheads in a curved arrangement to circumvent engineering machinery.

 

[Mytran]

RE: The curved corridor near engineering

Perhaps, the only way to fit a corridor in that section of the secondary hull was to place the bulkheads in a curved arrangement to circumvent engineering machinery.

I can certainly see short stretches of corridor snaking around the secondary hull that way, but a full third of a circle strains plausibility IMO

 

[Henoch]

The curved corridor does stand out as an oddity though. One thing that Robert_Comsol attempted to do was provide some sort of structural excuse for why there's curved corridors of ANY sort in the Engineering Hull - that's why he wrapped them around the yellow circle at the bottom of the ship (which I appreciate you can't do in your setup). Ideally, there should be some of odd shaped machinery that "has" to be there, forcing the corridor to curve around it.

Perhaps, the only way to fit a corridor in that section of the secondary hull was to place the bulkheads in a curved arrangement to circumvent engineering machinery.

I can certainly see short stretches of corridor snaking around the secondary hull that way, but a full third of a circle strains plausibility IMO

Two good reasons for the curved corridor:
1. Corridors are heavy traffic areas. If the forward main deflector generates some hazardous electromagnetic or subspace field, then you would want to set a safe zone from the source. The inside corridor wall is the safe exposure boundary for everyday use. (I'm actually a RAD worker and we use safe boundaries all the time.)
2. The turbolift system is where it is since the Enterprise was built. When engineering was restructured during its various refits (at least two), they connected the new entrances to the turbolift system with an efficient layout. A straight line would be the most efficient, but due to the hazard zone up front, then a curved corridor was the next best choice.

 

[Mytran]

Two good reasons for the curved corridor:
1. Corridors are heavy traffic areas. If the forward main deflector generates some hazardous electromagnetic or subspace field, then you would want to set a safe zone from the source. The inside corridor wall is the safe exposure boundary for everyday use. (I'm actually a RAD worker and we use safe boundaries all the time.)
2. The turbolift system is where it is since the Enterprise was built. When engineering was restructured during its various refits (at least two), they connected the new entrances to the turbolift system with an efficient layout. A straight line would be the most efficient, but due to the hazard zone up front, then a curved corridor was the next best choice.

I like the approach that the turboshaft system would probably be the last system to change, especially the vertical shafts. I'm not sure how that is reflected in the Engine Room plans you shared upthread though...does these mean that a version 2 of your plans are in the works?

 

[Henoch]

Remember though that if the structure was laid out in a non FP manner then the fifth pipe would be right out near the back of the area, around 100 feet or so from the Engine Room grill.

I just reviewed blssdwlf's work on the force perspective pipe structure. He showed it to be ~90 feet. Has anyone heard what the set designers were shooting for its length?

I like the approach that the turboshaft system would probably be the last system to change, especially the vertical shafts. I'm not sure how that is reflected in the Engine Room plans you shared upthread though...does these mean that a version 2 of your plans are in the works?

So, here's one more refinement with a small curved corridor, large hazardous deflector machinery and a 90' pipe structure just for the lower engine room. The back wall of the pipe structure is right at the front of the nacelle pylons for this size hull I'm using (no idea what size ship, but I think it's around the 947' size.) The white space at the stern is the hangar deck (one deck down from the flight deck or Shuttlebay).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just popping in to say this may be the nerdiest thread in TrekBBS history, and I am loving these efforts to fit the actual sets into the interior of the USS Enterprise.