Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Henoch]

I don't see the scene in Court Martial (lower picture above) as suggesting a different Engine Room, just Kirk entering the foyer from the deck above.

The orange GNDN on the wall in Court Martial was put there to hide the hole Scotty previously cut in the Naked Time, so, we must go by the door/no door at the end of the corridor. Implying a set of stairs in the foyer immediately behind that door is a good option especially since you established the foyer to solve the room-to-corridor angle problem. In the first season, I don't remember the red end door ever being used with obvious association to the yellow door to the "engineering control room", so, its not a turbolift. In the Second Season, it had an "A" frame, narrow cross hall and door to a turbolift all in line.

 

[Mytran]

In the first season, I don't remember the red end door ever being used with obvious association to the yellow door to the "engineering control room", so, its not a turbolift.

The red door in Court Martial is almost certainly a turbolift, even if it is not on the same deck at the Engine Room door in Naked Time:

In the Second Season, it had an "A" frame, narrow cross hall and door to a turbolift all in line.

The turbolift was down the hall to the right (as you exited the Engine Room) but the triangular doorway was directly opposite, down a short stretch of corridor:

If this is just repeating what you said then my apologies, but it's much easier to clarify with pictures!

 

[Henoch]

If this is just repeating what you said then my apologies, but it's much easier to clarify with pictures!

This is great info; you have it right. I also saw the turbolift open during the Sarek/Amanda walking tour into Engineering.

 

[Mytran]

I made an interesting discovery today regarding the double-triangular doodad in the middle of the S2/3 Engine Room (we really need a better name than that!)

It is most well known for housing the square dilithium paddles in Season Three, on a little box thingy:

However, when the DTD first appeared in Season Two that boxy thing had a slightly different appearance (clips from The Changeling and Ultimate Computer):

Is the dilithium access point something that was installed in yet another refit some time between Season 2 & 3? Just how many repairs and upgrades did these ships of the line have to go through in their time?

The reason I'm thinking about this is that the dilithium crystal circuits are (in my mind) something that should be confined to the main engineering facilities in the secondary hull and I was looking for something that might differentiate this from the saucer Engine Room, following the major upgrades after Season One.

Throughout most of it's screen time, the S2/3 Engine Room featured a door that led...well nowhere really! It just allows an alternative route into the main area. The openness was obscured in episodes like Mirror Mirror by the large power units blocking the way, but in other episodes like Ultimate Computer and Elaan Of Troyius it looks like this:

In UC the curved corridor suggests a saucer location but since the top of the DTD has that heat baffle block it's not an issue. In EOT on the other hand, Kryton explicitly access the dilithium crystal assembly, in order to sabotage it.

I had thought that the main difference between the saucer and engineering hull Engine Rooms might be the area seen in That Which Survives: In that episode, Scotty asks Watkins to check the "bypass valve on the matter-antimatter reaction chamber" who goes through the nowhere door and into an area stuffed with consoles and monitoring machinery:

Interestingly, this episode does not show or feature the pop-up dilithium crystal paddle. Make of that what you will!

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

To sound cliche, this is fascinating! I had said earlier that I was hoping to find a way of determining which Engine Room we see in a given episode, and this a real start. Ruthlessly following this concept, that would make "The Changeling" be confirmed in Saucer, and "Ellan of Troyius" is in the Secondary Hull.

But what would we do with "That Which Survives"? Clearly "Elaan of Troyius" has a desk where the M-5 was in real life, while "That Which Survives" has the control consoles.

I have never liked the idea of two similar engine rooms in the Secondary Hull, but I suddenly realize this could work if the control boxes on the wall behind John B. Watkins are up against the back of the "other" room behind the grate with the plasma conduits.

What do you think?

Another question, has anyone noted which episodes show a curved corridor and which don't? We know the curved corridor was always there in real life, but some episodes might not show it, and those could be in the secondary hull. "The Enemy Within" might make this work as an example.

 

[BK613]

Shall we also count the number times the "double-triangular doodad's" cylinders are reversed (I use the term "island" like a kitchen island)? The two cylinders are not the same size and one has a "cap" at the top of the dome where the other has an indentation at the top of the dome. You can see the size differences in this long shot from Ins "There in Truth No Beauty?" Also note the cap is farthest from the tubes.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x05hd/isthereintruthnobeautyhd0592.jpg

In "The Day of the Dove," you can see the island is reversed with the cap nearer the tubes.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x07hd/dayofthedovehd1256.jpg

Two engine rooms then? Engine rooms three and four?

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah the S2 Engine Room's DTD ( @Mytran) only had the black heat sink block AFAIK and S3 altered it to have the popup dilithium holder. The reversal of the DTD also existed in "The Doomsday Machine". The engine room that was explored on the Constellation had the cap towards the tubes and a sphere on top of the indention with the heat sink away from the control panels. Most of the times we see the heat sink closer to the control panels.

It should be interesting to go back and tally up all the variations to see if a pattern can emerge. (Although I am leaning towards a systems upgrade between S2 and S3 that further moved the dilithium cicuits down to the DTD.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

DTD meaning?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

double-triangular doodad

 

[Mytran]

To sound cliche, this is fascinating! I had said earlier that I was hoping to find a way of determining which Engine Room we see in a given episode, and this a real start. Ruthlessly following this concept, that would make "The Changeling" be confirmed in Saucer, and "Ellan of Troyius" is in the Secondary Hull.

But what would we do with "That Which Survives"? Clearly "Elaan of Troyius" has a desk where the M-5 was in real life, while "That Which Survives" has the control consoles.

It's more complicated than that as well! The back wall in EOT is placed right on the other side of the "nowhere door". The back wall in Watkins' room is pushed approx 6' further away (towards the main corridor set), gobbling up space from where the Brig is normally located.

However, since the Engine Room makes no further appearances after this episode (production order), this could be yet another upgrade and one which Scotty is very proud of. Imagine that - a dedicated diagnostic chamber, able to weedle out any and all of the ship's engine problems, in one easy location!
No wonder he wanted to make the most use out of it!
Poor Watkins

I have never liked the idea of two similar engine rooms in the Secondary Hull, but I suddenly realize this could work if the control boxes on the wall behind John B. Watkins are up against the back of the "other" room behind the grate with the plasma conduits.

What do you think?

I'm not sure what you're proposing here - if there's a second Engine Room behind the 90' plasma conduits, how would Watkins' diagnostic room (which is located in the first Engine Room) be connected to that at all?

Another question, has anyone noted which episodes show a curved corridor and which don't? We know the curved corridor was always there in real life, but some episodes might not show it, and those could be in the secondary hull. "The Enemy Within" might make this work as an example.

Only Naked Time and Ultimate Computer explicity show the long curved corridor leading into the Engine Room. Court Martial has Kirk strolling down the curved corridor and into an area marked "ENGINEERING" but there's no label on the door he enters (see my foyer theory et al). Other than UC, the Engineering corridor was always filmed towards the short turbolift end of the corridor (which has a mere slight bend and is perfectly easy to accommodate) or just on the straight section. Were it not for UC, I would have said they'd learned their lesson from Season One!

Shall we also count the number times the "double-triangular doodad's" cylinders are reversed (I use the term "island" like a kitchen island)?

Well if TNG can have a pool table, I see no reason why TOS can't have an island. It's certainly a much more concise term than my DTD!

The two cylinders are not the same size and one has a "cap" at the top of the dome where the other has an indentation at the top of the dome. You can see the size differences in this long shot from Ins "There in Truth No Beauty?" Also note the cap is farthest from the tubes.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x05hd/isthereintruthnobeautyhd0592.jpg

In "The Day of the Dove," you can see the island is reversed with the cap nearer the tubes.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x07hd/dayofthedovehd1256.jpg

If it were just those raised/indented caps I would be content to say that they can rise or fall depending on engine conditions and leave it at that.
But there's that little drawer (seen in your DOTD pic) on the base of the island as well. It's in EOT too (Kryten opens it to sabotage the systems) and it may yet turn up in other episodes too. D'oh!

Two engine rooms then? Engine rooms three and four?

I'm fairly certain we can get by with just two - one in each hull

One thing is certain though - I need a spreadsheet to keep track of all these changes!

 

[BK613]

If it were just those raised/indented caps I would be content to say that they can rise or fall depending on engine conditions and leave it at that.
But there's that little drawer (seen in your DOTD pic) on the base of the island as well. It's in EOT too (Kryten opens it to sabotage the systems) and it may yet turn up in other episodes too. D'oh!

There are the cylinders themselves. They are not the same size (and once you see the difference, you don't not see it ). One has a larger diameter than the other, reaching almost to the spheres. You can see this in the overhead shot from ITITNB
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x05hd/isthereintruthnobeautyhd0592.jpg

One thing is certain though - I need a spreadsheet to keep track of all these changes!

Might need a straight jacket as well

 

[BK613]

The reversal of the DTD also existed in "The Doomsday Machine". The engine room that was explored on the Constellation had the cap towards the tubes and a sphere on top of the indention with the heat sink away from the control panels. Most of the times we see the heat sink closer to the control panels.

This speaks to the point that using other vessels of the Connie class may not be as useful as one would hope. Real world experience has taught me that vessels of the same class are not carbon copies of each other. Usually there are differences in equipment and layout.

 

[Mytran]

There are the cylinders themselves. They are not the same size (and once you see the difference, you don't not see it ). One has a larger diameter than the other, reaching almost to the spheres. You can see this in the overhead shot from ITITNB
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x05hd/isthereintruthnobeautyhd0592.jpg

Well thank you for ruining my Sunday for me - and every other day, forever!!!

In addition, that overhead shot gives a really good view of the 3 pipes structure behind the mesh.

 

[BK613]

Well thank you for ruining my Sunday for me - and every other day, forever!!!

Good Smeagol alwayss helpss, gollum

In addition, that overhead shot gives a really good view of the 3 pipes structure behind the mesh.

Yes, that shot is very useful for getting the spacing right.

 

[Henoch]

However, since the Engine Room makes no further appearances after this episode (production order), this could be yet another upgrade and one which Scotty is very proud of. Imagine that - a dedicated diagnostic chamber, able to weedle out any and all of the ship's engine problems, in one easy location!
No wonder he wanted to make the most use out of it!

I love spreadsheets! Let me start one on the Engine Room appearances with morphs, EMM, DTD, side room, etc. data. Don't stop your efforts. Give me some time, but here's just a start of the info for Season 3:

#57 Elaan of Troyius (small side room with only small desk, open to main area; DTD nub toward pipes)
#58 The Paradise Syndrome (explosion in back pipes, "My bairns. My poor bairns." Nice camera angle for pipe FP! http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x03/The_Paradise_Syndrome_154.JPG)
#59 The Enterprise Incident (barren small room but working area in front of side room with M5 console plus cloaking device install (see photos below); DTD nub ? from pipes)
#62 Is There In Truth No Beauty? (DTD nub away from pipes; in EMM)
#64 The Tholian Web (Defiant Engine Room: in EMM, DTD nub toward pipes)
#66 Day of the Dove (DTD nub toward pipes, drawer seen; Conjecture on right side main floor, conjecture on ladder/controls in place of side room?)
#69 That Which Survives (Watkins' diagnostic room in side room-maybe under new ladder/control consoles, open/closed from main floor would clinch it, but I can't tell?)
#73 The Lights of Zetar (in EMM; DTD nub away from pipes)​

But there's that little drawer (seen in your DOTD pic) on the base of the island as well. It's in EOT too (Kryten opens it to sabotage the systems) and it may yet turn up in other episodes too. D'oh!

The drawer is on the smaller cylinder, seen when DTD nub on large cylinder is toward the pipes. It shows up in Day of the Dove in Kirk/Kang fight scene: https://ibb.co/vctbpXB

The Enterprise Incident had some doozy views of Scott working on the cloaking device from two camera angles, suggesting the side room is barren so the small desk was moved:

 

[Henoch]

I'm not sure what you're proposing here - if there's a second Engine Room behind the 90' plasma conduits, how would Watkins' diagnostic room (which is located in the first Engine Room) be connected to that at all?

Subspace WiFi or Subspace Bluetooth.

 

[Henoch]

The back wall in Watkins' room is pushed approx 6' further away (towards the main corridor set), gobbling up space from where the Brig is normally located.

Turn the red pipes 90 degrees based on the camera angle. The forth wall is unseen, still leaving space for the ladder/console wall in Day of the Dove. The low ceiling height works if you are under the console walkway above. A photo with Scott over Watkins dead body shows the edge of a small step down of 3-4 inches as you come into the room.

 

[blssdwlf]

IMHO, Mytran has it correct with the pipes location. I don't see why there can't be two or more engine rooms in the secondary hull though.

Turn the red pipes 90 degrees based on the camera angle. The forth wall is unseen, still leaving space for the ladder/console wall in Day of the Dove. The low ceiling height works if you are under the console walkway above. A photo with Scott over Watkins dead body shows the edge of a small step down of 3-4 inches as you come into the room.

 

[Henoch]

IMHO, Mytran has it correct with the pipes location. I don't see why there can't be two or more engine rooms in the secondary hull though.

The camera angle is off by 90 degrees. The electronic wall gizmos are on a wall adjacent to the entrance. The actors are standing in-line parallel to the wall. It is obvious in the live action. Here:
Scene A and Scene B immediately following (unless there are pipes on both walls). After they pivot positions by 180, the wall of pipes is behind Watkins. This supports YOUR engine room design, blssdwlf.

 

[blssdwlf]

@Henoch - no worries about my engine room design. I'm happy to find new things that were missed before and make adjustments. I don't see a problem with a Day of the Dove engine room next to a That Which Survives engine room. After all, there are supposed to be multiple engine rooms on the Enterprise. As far as the pipes, there is a camera view looking out into the alcove and the pipes are where @Mytran diagrammed. Also when Scotty runs in from the alcove the camera pans to the right where the pipes are and you can see out into the engine room.

The camera angle is off by 90 degrees. The electronic wall gizmos are on a wall adjacent to the entrance. The actors are standing in-line parallel to the wall. It is obvious in the live action. Here:
Scene A and Scene B immediately following (unless there are pipes on both walls). After they pivot positions by 180, the wall of pipes is behind Watkins. This supports YOUR engine room design, blssdwlf.