Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

[CorporalCaptain]

If replicators could make torpedeos or the parts for them, then they would have a way to replace them, as Janeway stated that they have NO WAY to replace them, then we can infer that they can't.

Bingo. This is pretty definitive proof that there are parts of standard photon torpedoes that can't be replicated by the types of replicators that Voyager shipped out with.

It doesn't preclude the crew finding one or more ways of acquiring those parts, but it is what it is.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, the premise did preclude them from finding external aid. "No Support" is in the premise, and that means no external aid from friendly aliens as well.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Actually, the premise did preclude them from finding external aid. "No Support" is in the premise, and that means no external aid from friendly aliens as well.

I don't think so.

First of all, the critical peace of dialog in "The Cloud" says only this.

CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.

Second of all, here's Janeway's final log entry in "Caretaker", with relevant parts boldfaced.

JANEWAY: We're alone in an uncharted part of the galaxy. We have already made some friends here, and some enemies. We have no idea of the dangers we're going to face, but one thing is clear. Both crews are going to have to work together if we're to survive. That's why Commander Chakotay and I have agreed that this should be one crew. A Starfleet crew. And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive to seek out new worlds and explore space. But our primary goal is clear. Even at maximum speeds, it would take seventy five years to reach the Federation, but I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there a lot faster. We'll be looking for her, and we'll be looking for wormholes, spatial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey, we'll find a way back. Mister Paris, set a course for home.

It would seem quite clear that a) their technology was not originally intended to replace photon torpedoes and that b) they were open to being helped by aliens.

A word or two, that they traded for critical materials needed to replenish their torpedoes, or found places where they could mine such materials, or just some plausible explanation for how they overcame the limitation that was deemed worthwhile to mention in the first place, would have been enough to put the issue of how the limitation was overcome to rest (though of course, likely some people wouldn't have been satisfied for other reasons).

 

[Anwar]

Yes, but like it's been pointed out those lines about irreplaceable torpedoes didn't make much sense when you take everything else into consideration.

And when it's brought up how Voyager violated it's premise the whole "We made friends" thing is part of that violation.

The premise is that they'd have no support, that means no help from anyone at all. No aliens or anything. As soon as they made friends and did trading and all that, they were violating the premise.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The premise is that they'd have no support, that means no help from anyone at all. No aliens or anything.

What source are you getting this from?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix said that they were in Kazon Space.

Logically if the Kazon even had a modest credible empire, then the next 100 ships they encountered, or the next 2 dozen worlds they ran across would have all been Kazon who all had a hard on to get back at Voyager for the shit that went down in Caretaker.

And that's just if Kathryn was a criminal murderer with a price on her head wandering about until she bumps into the next stump of Kazon law and order... There should have been a posse hunting her once the Oolga got their shit together.

A city ship was destroyed,

That's twenty thousand souls minimum.

 

[Anwar]

The premise is that they'd have no support, that means no help from anyone at all. No aliens or anything.

What source are you getting this from?

Everyone who's ever said that Voyager violated its premise. "Lost ship with no support". Well, "No Support" is a lot more constraining than most assume.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The premise is that they'd have no support, that means no help from anyone at all. No aliens or anything.

What source are you getting this from?

Everyone who's ever said that Voyager violated its premise. "Lost ship with no support". Well, "No Support" is a lot more constraining than most assume.

My question is, "Where in the premise did they say that Voyager was to get no support, even to the degree of not getting help from aliens?" The answer is nowhere, right?

 

[MacLeod]

Actually, the premise did preclude them from finding external aid. "No Support" is in the premise, and that means no external aid from friendly aliens as well.

I don't think so.

First of all, the critical peace of dialog in "The Cloud" says only this.

CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.

Second of all, here's Janeway's final log entry in "Caretaker", with relevant parts boldfaced.

JANEWAY: We're alone in an uncharted part of the galaxy. We have already made some friends here, and some enemies. We have no idea of the dangers we're going to face, but one thing is clear. Both crews are going to have to work together if we're to survive. That's why Commander Chakotay and I have agreed that this should be one crew. A Starfleet crew. And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive to seek out new worlds and explore space. But our primary goal is clear. Even at maximum speeds, it would take seventy five years to reach the Federation, but I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there a lot faster. We'll be looking for her, and we'll be looking for wormholes, spatial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey, we'll find a way back. Mister Paris, set a course for home.

It would seem quite clear that a) their technology was not originally intended to replace photon torpedoes and that b) they were open to being helped by aliens.

A word or two, that they traded for critical materials needed to replenish their torpedoes, or found places where they could mine such materials, or just some plausible explanation for how they overcame the limitation that was deemed worthwhile to mention in the first place, would have been enough to put the issue of how the limitation was overcome to rest (though of course, likely some people wouldn't have been satisfied for other reasons).

Well as the saying goes you can't please everyone all of the time.

 

[Anwar]

What source are you getting this from?

Everyone who's ever said that Voyager violated its premise. "Lost ship with no support". Well, "No Support" is a lot more constraining than most assume.

My question is, "Where in the premise did they say that Voyager was to get no support, even to the degree of not getting help from aliens?" The answer is nowhere, right?

If the audience didn't expect the crew to find help and do repairs (any repairs at all), then they wouldn't have been so upset that they DID manage to replenish supplies and do repairs.

So they were mad that they found external support.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Everyone who's ever said that Voyager violated its premise. "Lost ship with no support". Well, "No Support" is a lot more constraining than most assume.

My question is, "Where in the premise did they say that Voyager was to get no support, even to the degree of not getting help from aliens?" The answer is nowhere, right?

If the audience didn't expect the crew to find help and do repairs (any repairs at all), then they wouldn't have been so upset that they DID manage to replenish supplies and do repairs.

So they were mad that they found external support.

Uh-huh.

 

[Anwar]

If Year of Hell hadn't been reset, and they spent the next full season doing nothing but repairing the ship and finding alien doctors who could restore Tuvok's sight and everything was explained and done slowly and painstakingly....

...The audience still would've complained that they "reset" everything.

 

[exodus]

The other major problem was that the show didn't really have a sustainable plot. "Lost Ship" is only sustainable for 2 seasons at most. Not having anything beyond that meant they didn't have much to work with.

No, you can't get 7 seasons out of the "We're low on supplies" thing.

Yes, exactly because then the complains would go from "Why is the ship always perfect?" to "Why haven't they learned in 7 years how to keep the ship together?"

If Voyager's tech was more advanced than everyone else in the DQ, wouldn't flying around in a busted up ship be a contradiction? If it's tech is so advanced, why couldn't they hold the ship together?

On a ship full of military trained Engineers and replicators, why couldn't they build more torpedos? How is it possible that a Chief Security Officer nearly 100 yrs old, who spent a major part of his career teaching cadets combat, tactical and weaponry.....and he nor any of the other graduates have no knowledge of how to build torpedos? Why would such a thing NOT be a required course? Why would Tuvok, B'Elanna & Harry not have taken a course on how to do this, knowing they'd have to understand how one works when out in the field? We saw B'Elanna taking pieces of one apart to reprogram it AGAIN in "Dreadnaut". She explained she understood it's detonation device. Too know ALL that, you'd have to know how to build one!

How many times did we hear Janeway state that replicators can make weapons? That's why she didn't want to give one to the Kazon. Why wouldn't military Engineers & Tactical Officers not be able to replicate parts and put together the very technology they use? These are the very people building it and creating it to begin with.

The line about not being able to build more torpedos was dismissed for these reasons. It doesn't make sense if you have such wonderful tech as a replicator and well trained Engineers that you CAN'T build the shit you need for a Starship, even one lost. The only reason they wouldn't be able to create or build anything is if they lost power to the replicators. As long as those work, they're kinda worry free.

Conversely if the tech is so advanced it might make it harder to use alien facilites to conduct repairs to things like the hull.

If replicators could make torpedeos or the parts for them, then they would have a way to replace them, as Janeway stated that they have NO WAY to replace them, then we can infer that they can't. Technology has limits, otherwise were is the drama? Why do we still see them constructing ships, why not just replicate them?

This is absurd.
You're being purposely blind.
Regardless of what Janeway said, they turned around and showed they could. They corrected their own mistake in writing. You have what you asked for.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Or they'd have come across an all-repairing robot station like in ENT's "Dead Stop" and fixed things up in 42 minutes.

 

[exodus]

^Or they'd have come across an all-repairing robot station like in ENT's "Dead Stop" and fixed things up in 42 minutes.

The problem is, "fans" are taking one line written as if it's set in stone, when we all know damn well that the writers (GOD) wish to change that idea it will be because many times there works in progress. Many times without explanation.

Perfect example: TNG told us Trill can't use transporters but DS9 has Dax beaming down all the time and no mention why. No explanation why the Ferengi culture changed from their first introduction to DS9. Nobody holds them to their word on that.


It's absurd.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^Or they'd have come across an all-repairing robot station like in ENT's "Dead Stop" and fixed things up in 42 minutes.

Worst remake of Hansel and Gretle ever.