Endgame: How accurate was the Admiral's time-travel ability?

[Guy Gardener]

All things aside, she was putting rank consciousness ahead of her libido. Failing Rudy not being all too sexy, he squints too much, she could have gone as low as a Lt Commander, if he (or she?) wasn't under her command on her vessel? The equinox was like an episode of the love connection and it was snatched away from her before she could abuse it in the slightest.

Kathy's vaja-ja was very very angry at Ransom for a hulk of reasons.

I was thinking that the best point to show up with all the tech, would either have been during the movie first contact to stop the interplexing beacon, ENT regeneration to stop the Borg couriers, Getting the raven out of harms way and saving tiny Anika Hansen, the neutral Zone to defend the Human and Romulan boarder Outposts, or Q Who to destroy that Cube without q's help before it got word off to the rest of the collective...

If she wanted to save the federation from the Borg, there were plenty of better places to time travel towards with a hunkering for a fiddle.

 

[kimc]

Adm. Janeway liked to hold grudges, as we know.

How do we know that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Killing the Queen once wasn't enough. If she had survived the adventure because she wasn't a moron, who is to say that she wouldn't have time hopped back again to save Voyager again and Kill the queen a third time.

Oh, and Suder. She was sour about him for yonks.

Although she promoted Tom and Tuvok who both *&^%ed her over royally.

 

[kimc]

Although she promoted Tom and Tuvok who both *&^%ed her over royally.

Which kind of belies the whole holding grudges thing don't you think? Color me confused!

 

[Brit]

Can I ask why anyone thinks a serial killer kept on a small ship without said killer being restrained is a good idea?

Brit

 

[Cyke101]

Although she promoted Tom and Tuvok who both *&^%ed her over royally.

Which kind of belies the whole holding grudges thing don't you think? Color me confused!

Because they're family! Complete with hallmark cards and doves flying behind them. They're not a crew anymore, but a large, caring family (with very clear signs of favoritism. Poor, poor Carey).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Can I ask why anyone thinks a serial killer kept on a small ship without said killer being restrained is a good idea?

Brit

The Vulcan logic fixed him right up. Suder wasn't exactly the same person because he now knew bad from good and guilt could fu<k him up completely. Like the difference between having a chip and soul for Spike when the chip stopped working... Although it's way more like Repentance in seaosn 6 or 7 where the Doctor does enough brain surgery on a serial killer till he starts thinking and feeling like a normal person and he now knew bad from good and guilt could fu<k him up completely. You'd almost think that it was a rewrite of the Suder story because someone was angry about how it all went down originally that they snuck in a mulligan. You'll remember how Kathryn and the Doctor fought tooth and nail to work an appeal for the prisoner bloke? Meanwhile Kathy wouldn't let Suder have a little farm in his quarters to suppliment Kes' areoponics bay because he was dead to her.

Although she promoted Tom and Tuvok who both *&^%ed her over royally.

Which kind of belies the whole holding grudges thing don't you think? Color me confused!

The chain of command was scary. After she, Chakotay, Tuvok and B'lanna kicked off, that would have left Captin Kim as the master and commander of the USS Voyager. That is a state of affairs no one was comfortable leaving so little buffering between a sensible commander and allowing that punk to doom them all.

Because they're family! Complete with hallmark cards and doves flying behind them. They're not a crew anymore, but a large, caring family (with very clear signs of favoritism. Poor, poor Carey).

Evidence suggests Janeway has a nuclear family which doesn't extend past the main cast.

6 years in and the only away mission those kids from good shepherd had had was Basics II. Kathryn didn't even try to know the crew, given the opportunity to muck about with her people once there seemed to be no baddies in sight for months either side of now during Night, does she invite random crewmen to dinner (Like captain Stubing and Captain Kirk from Red Dwarf... Okay, "Hollister".)? No she has an episode and locks herself in her room for a month until the razors edge reappears which just so happens to be her happy place.

 

[2 of 10]

She must have rationalized when exactly would be the best time to meet Voyager. Too early and you lose the intel on the Borg and the enhancements on the ship and still sacrificing some crew. If she came too late they lose Seven and in her opinion have therefore spent too much time in the DQ.

I still think she was a bitch for not going back an extra month and saving Lt. Carey's life. The guy had a wife and children, yet she chose to let him die a month away from getting home? Great captaining there Janeway.

Good Point, I always liked Carey...

 

[2 of 10]

One possible reason why she may have chosen that time/place was that she needed to have Voyager near the Borg Transwarp Hub, there were only six in the entire Galaxy...

 

[USS Fardell]

LOL fourteen replies and the general consensus is what I've always thought, "Endgame" is a screwed up episode that paid no attention to continuity. My first fic was an attempt to "fix" it. The difference for me is that I don't blame the characters but rather the writer that came up with it in the first place.

Brit

I guess so.

 

[Lashmore]

It was 100% accurate and correct, for beyond some theories that are yet to be scientifically proven....we ourselves are no experts on what is and what not possible for space time bending and or manipulation.

So, its 100% correct and where it should be. Why? Because the writers said so.

Bad, unoriginal writers after so long of dribbling in the same franchise, yes, but the writers no less.

 

[Guy Gardener]

One possible reason why she may have chosen that time/place was that she needed to have Voyager near the Borg Transwarp Hub, there were only six in the entire Galaxy...

The star drive on Janeways shuttle was grunty enough to whisk her to the Delta Quadrant with out much heretofore. Why give them advanced weapons which will change the future when she could have just given them a better engine? Or if she could fit 6 people in her shuttle, more if you count leaving people in transporter suspension, and it takes her 5 minutes for a round trip to earth and back to the hub... uM, that's three hours to take the crew home and leave voyager behind... If the shuttle couldn't have towed Voyager.

Or they could have just beat up a cube and appropriated its tech with the help of Admiral Janeway that the trip home via a regular transwarp conduit would only take a week after they steal come ciols, or just drive the cube and make it tow Voayger. Going after the hub was just stupid risk to shave 6 days off the trip home, and probably only so that Admiral Janeway could say hello to the queen to work out some issues she couldn't in the future because her magesty has already been killed if the same queen weren't played different actresses.

Admiral Janeway was a wanker. She must have cared that it not be seen in retrospect that her younger self cheated too much. Admiral Janeway had to make sure that the journey home was still difficult or the folks back home wouldn't think of her youngerself and the brave crew as heroes, which was incredibly important. This is the "teach a man how to fish" mentality used all cockeyed, since Voayger never could have beat up the hub without the Admirals help that in no way were they being taught how to fish. She was totally giving them fish, but the old broad was playing keep away just to make sure it seamed like the young ones built up a little sweat from the exercise, for appearances sake.

In all, Endgame was about how safe it is to be treated as a child rather than the fortitude of making adult decisions, and that's a really really shi!!y way to treat these people after they spent 7 years entertaining us... Why didn't Admiral Janeway just go back to boff Q or NOT kill Quinn? Hell, if she'd bound and gagged those two Ferengi and stuck them in a wine cellar a couple days before Voayger turned up, L'll Kathy would have got home in seaosn 2 or Three.

 

[Praetor]

But, wasn't it the temporal drive that allowed her to transverse space (and wasn't that a one-way journey)?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seems it was, but they were only 30,000 light years out there. They could hardly beat the Borg if the Federation couldn't chase them down to their furtherest hidden away bolthole if they hadn't mastered Transwarp technology even if they had to steal it from the borg int he first place.

The temopral device was more rickety, than it was designed for one use, I'm just amused that Reg and the Paris kid and Kim all though they were safe if Janeway went back to change history, that it must not have been an out and out time machine, but if she used it to go into the future after she did what she had to, it wouldn't be the same future she voyaged out from in the beginningof the episode.

 

[Praetor]

Seems it was, but they were only 30,000 light years out there. They could hardly beat the Borg if the Federation couldn't chase them down to their furtherest hidden away bolthole if they hadn't mastered Transwarp technology even if they had to steal it from the borg int he first place.

Oh, I see what you're saying. That makes sense, but does Kathy ever say that the Borg are totally defeated in her timeline? Doesn't she just say something about 'weapons to defend against the Borg'?

The temopral device was more rickety, than it was designed for one use, I'm just amused that Reg and the Paris kid and Kim all though they were safe if Janeway went back to change history, that it must not have been an out and out time machine, but if she used it to go into the future after she did what she had to, it wouldn't be the same future she voyaged out from in the beginningof the episode.

You know, that's very true. None of the others seemed to care that Admiral Kathy was rewriting their own pasts too. But didn't Captain Harry say that she didn't think she'd be able to come back at all, something like 'this thing looks like it will burn itself out after one use'? So coming back to her own future was a non-issue.

And since Braxton and the Timecops (tm) didn't show up, it must have been (1) another reality or (2) the 'correct' history for Voyager to get home early as aided by Admiral Kathy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I browsed through the script before continuing the our discussion, but That's what I meant by rickety.

Considering Braxton HAD to put Janeway back in the DQ at the ass end of Futures End, without taking the Doctor's Mobile emitter off them, or reversing the computer revelation of the 1970s, it does seem that holding the shape of the past means allowing temporal criminals like Admiral Janeway to run amok now and then... Their absense in Endgame is amusing unless you beleive that their 29th century vanished because of Admiral Janeways intervention and a younger Braxton or Ducane no longer had the muscle to put right which was going wrong.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Maybe Braxton and co. came from a future where they events of Endgame already happened.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well that was already evidenced from the tech upgrade on the Aeon between young Braxton ii and Braxton who became Grampy... The first believed in determined unwavering progression of events and predestination, the other possessed the technology to monitor alternate timelines, the only difference was that the more advanced Braxton said that Janeway was supposed to be in the DQ and Gampy said that Voyager must die.

Of course after they integrated the two of them black became white, as we waited for a third Braxton to be arrived and inserted into the first two?

Did they integrate the dead Sevens of Nine into the live ones at the end of relativity? Considering Janeways feeling on composite beings, surely she should have struggled a little to differentiate herself if she was even the slightest bit afraid that 10 minutes or so of different history with her time twins constituted "alieness".

And besides, everything from before Fury was in a distinctly different time line where Janeway didn't have Kes' blood on her hands 56 days into the mission. The Viewership in real life did not see the crew who got home from after maybe episode 6, and the crew that they saw after maybe episode 6well they never saw them get home... So really we don't know if the Janeways in Endgame ever met any Braxtons or any of the adventures of theirs I have on VHS might have actually occurred radically different on take two.

Which pushes Voyager from indecent to criminal.

 

[Deks]

Well ... Chakotay himself stated in 'Eye of the needle' (a Season 1 episode if I'm not mistaken) that warning SF not to launch Voyager's mission would likely have a detrimental effect as the vessel already influenced the course of history in the DQ.
Also ... what about the Maqui and the Dreadnought?

I would surmise that admiral Janeway wanted to at least retain a certain period from their travels in the DQ.
She also likely analyzed what would altering the past at an earlier time do to the quadrant.

If you also take into consideration something else ... Carey likely HAD to die in order for the events to play out as they did.
Janeway likely thought about that for some time and came to the conclusion that in that instance, the need of the many (the alien race that were on a post-nuclear and highly saturated with radiation planet) outweighted the needs of the few (Carey).
If she took Voyager before that mission, then the entire planet and their population would be dead.
Well, I guess she could have gone back and tell them on how to solve that planet's problems ... but I guess that doing things from a safe distance would not be enough for those people. Had Voyager not interveened, the aliens would again likely die because of lack of medical attention (and their medical tech was inferior to the Feds).

 

[Praetor]

Well that was already evidenced from the tech upgrade on the Aeon between young Braxton ii and Braxton who became Grampy... The first believed in determined unwavering progression of events and predestination, the other possessed the technology to monitor alternate timelines, the only difference was that the more advanced Braxton said that Janeway was supposed to be in the DQ and Gampy said that Voyager must die.

Of course after they integrated the two of them black became white, as we waited for a third Braxton to be arrived and inserted into the first two?

Did they integrate the dead Sevens of Nine into the live ones at the end of relativity? Considering Janeways feeling on composite beings, surely she should have struggled a little to differentiate herself if she was even the slightest bit afraid that 10 minutes or so of different history with her time twins constituted "alieness".

And besides, everything from before Fury was in a distinctly different time line where Janeway didn't have Kes' blood on her hands 56 days into the mission. The Viewership in real life did not see the crew who got home from after maybe episode 6, and the crew that they saw after maybe episode 6well they never saw them get home... So really we don't know if the Janeways in Endgame ever met any Braxtons or any of the adventures of theirs I have on VHS might have actually occurred radically different on take two.

Which pushes Voyager from indecent to criminal.

Oy. Time travel gives me a headache. I guess 'Endgame' was supposed to happen then, unless Grampy Braxton shows up to tell us Janeway pushed him into non-existence.