Endgame as it was first intended...

[Praetorian]

I just saw Endgame and then proceeded to watch the dvd feature about it. In it Biller and Berman revealed that they actually toyed with the idea of having the crew not reach home.

Imagine that Janeway destroys the Transwarp Hub (without crossing it, nothing of that "having our cake and eat it too" sillynness..) preventing them from reaching home earlier. The episode did seemed to be setting that up, specially with Kim's (nice) speech. In essence all that happened in Admiral's Janeway timeline would happen again, and that would indeed be the future of the crew. It would be like Janeway's decision in Caretaker.. However this time everyone would support Janeway, including Tuvok (as he actually supported) Seven and Chakotay. All because it would deal a brutal (final?) blow to the Borg and save millions of people...and because they knew they would eventually get home and be happy (for the most part)...

Seems to me it would have been a more fulfilling episode...

Admiral Janeway could actually be talked out of her plan, or actually try to betray the crew (like it seemed it was happening) but fail or come to her senses...

 

[Gary7]

Yeah, but the Star Trek franchise wanted to use the young Vice Admiral Janeway in the next movie, so...

 

[Praetorian]

There were TNG movies after First Contact? =P

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not getting home would have been awesome.

On lost when they discovered those bodies in the caves, I said "SHIT! It's Gilligan and Ginger!!!"

Y'know between Janeway being a messenger girl, or Enterprise rescuing Voyager or just finding them out of gas 5 feet from the federation boarder "No Picard, we don't want to be towed home yet, there's something symbolic here to get out of the way, we've been waiting a week already to drift into federation space before we sent out a distress call, so you don't think you could get in behind and just give us a nudge in the ass?"... Well? What the hell worth happening happened in Nemesis that was bloody worth my time and money (I actually created a double feature that evening and saw daredevil too. It might just have been the worst night of my life, and I have been in several traffic incidents.) that Picard couldn't have "found" Voyager halfway through that @#$ed movie?

Oh my.

What if the Romulans had been torturing the crew for a few years/months and with the changeover/execution of the former government, Shinzon decided to hand over the Voyager Crew as a symbol of good will? Or it could have been a complete parallel of contra gate. You will ship us one million quantum torpedoes or we cut off Harry Kims fingers and overnight post them to his mother.

 

[Praetor]

I just saw Endgame and then proceeded to watch the dvd feature about it. In it Biller and Berman revealed that they actually toyed with the idea of having the crew not reach home.

Imagine that Janeway destroys the Transwarp Hub (without crossing it, nothing of that "having our cake and eat it too" sillynness..) preventing them from reaching home earlier. The episode did seemed to be setting that up, specially with Kim's (nice) speech. In essence all that happened in Admiral's Janeway timeline would happen again, and that would indeed be the future of the crew. It would be like Janeway's decision in Caretaker.. However this time everyone would support Janeway, including Tuvok (as he actually supported) Seven and Chakotay. All because it would deal a brutal (final?) blow to the Borg and save millions of people...and because they knew they would eventually get home and be happy (for the most part)...

Seems to me it would have been a more fulfilling episode...

Admiral Janeway could actually be talked out of her plan, or actually try to betray the crew (like it seemed it was happening) but fail or come to her senses...

That would have been so much less of a cop-out. The ending felt SO forced.

I still say the best version of the plot would have been a 'retrospect' type flashback involving no real time travel, interspersing a problem that the crew face in the future with a problem they face at the end of the seven-year journey. Could be the Borg, could not be. Could get home, could not.

 

[Octavia]

Is it just me or does it seem like the first ideas were always the better ones when it comes to Voyager? Then the writers start actually thinking about it and it gets all shot to hell...

 

[Guy Gardener]

No, it's not just you.

 

[Eddie Roth]

Octavia, what would be another example of the VGR writers overthinking something?

 

[Praetorian]

That would have been so much less of a cop-out. The ending felt SO forced.

I still say the best version of the plot would have been a 'retrospect' type flashback involving no real time travel, interspersing a problem that the crew face in the future with a problem they face at the end of the seven-year journey. Could be the Borg, could not be. Could get home, could not.

Indeed, the less time travel the better!

 

[Praetor]

Is it just me or does it seem like the first ideas were always the better ones when it comes to Voyager? Then the writers start actually thinking about it and it gets all shot to hell...

No, it's not just you.

Most definitely not.

Octavia, what would be another example of the VGR writers overthinking something?

The first thing that comes to mind going backwards is 'Workforce,' where they changed the rather interesting notion of the crew living alternate lives and showing the impossible Janeway/Chakotay relationship happening in this alternate life, then having them deal with it after they have to return to regular life.

Then there's 'Unimatrix Zero' where they took the interesting idea of having Seven meet her still-living father in the 'Borg subconscious' and diluted it down to soap-opera crap that IMO gutted Seven's character a bit, complete with a predictable action plot and 'off with their heads!' Borg Queen.

Generally, the writers seemed to take an intriguing premise and overcomplicate it to death. 'That's not complex enough... we need more technobabble, and another twist!!'

That would have been so much less of a cop-out. The ending felt SO forced.

I still say the best version of the plot would have been a 'retrospect' type flashback involving no real time travel, interspersing a problem that the crew face in the future with a problem they face at the end of the seven-year journey. Could be the Borg, could not be. Could get home, could not.

Indeed, the less time travel the better!

Especially since it gives Kathy a headache...

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Octavia, what would be another example of the VGR writers overthinking something?

Virtually everything. The characters and how they interacted with each other were quite different from the original concepts. The Maquis and Starfleet officers were to be very antagonistic for a considerable amount of time, for example, bringing something new that was generally absent from Star Trek: character conflict. Imagine that refreshing dynamic. Instead everybody kissed and made up by the third episode. I can't think of any other series that ended up so far removed from the initial plan.

 

[Praetor]

Octavia, what would be another example of the VGR writers overthinking something?

Virtually everything. The characters and how they interacted with each other were quite different from the original concepts. The Maquis and Starfleet officers were to be very antagonistic for a considerable amount of time, for example, bringing something new that was generally absent from Star Trek: character conflict. Imagine that refreshing dynamic. Instead everybody kissed and made up by the third episode. I can't think of any other series that ended up so far removed from the initial plan.

So true.

I believe the series bible also emphasized that B'Elanna and Tuvok were to develop a student and mentor relationship, by which Tuvok helped her overcome her anger problem. Obviously, that didn't really happen either.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

^^ Yes, Tuvok was to have been an elderly engineer. When the much younger Tim Russ was cast they had to give Tuvok a more dynamic purpose, hence his being re-written as the tactical officer.

 

[Tomalak]

Octavia, what would be another example of the VGR writers overthinking something?

Virtually everything. The characters and how they interacted with each other were quite different from the original concepts. The Maquis and Starfleet officers were to be very antagonistic for a considerable amount of time, for example, bringing something new that was generally absent from Star Trek: character conflict. Imagine that refreshing dynamic. Instead everybody kissed and made up by the third episode. I can't think of any other series that ended up so far removed from the initial plan.

How true.

The lack of character conflict annoyed me the most. I assume it was a result of Piller leaving fairly soon, as I distinctly remember Jeri Taylor talking at the beginning of the third season about how she wanted to do away with the angst (!) and make Voyager a "happy crew" (!!). I think it was around then that they dropped all pretence of Maquis/Starfleet antagonism, apart from paying lip-service now and again in a flashback episode. Once that was finished with, the Chakotay character was essentially superfluous. It's as if they could only write for TNG, so they quickly bent the show into a pale imitation of that to make life easier.

I couldn't stand the massive character shift that Janeway underwent in the fourth season, which made her character almost unrecognisable. The rest of the characters quickly became ciphers, like the cast of Friends. Ho, ho, Tuvok is so serious. Harry Kim is a pathetic excuse for a human being. Tom Paris likes the 20th century. Torres is grumpy. Neelix is "wacky" comic relief. The Doctor is an egotist, etc.

They were also supposed to adapt alien technologies to replace parts of the ship that were damaged. Instead, the ship ended up pristine in every episode in stock footage to save money. It's a missed opportunity really, as CGI was advancing enough to make something like that more realistic. As far as alien tech went, Neelix's kitchen and the Borg alcoves was about as far as it got.

 

[Praetor]

I must once again say, I am really growing to dislike Jeri Taylor and her so-called 'ideas.'

Why? Because they paved the way to allow VGR to become the vanilla series it became.

 

[JustKate]

^ Why would anybody in her right mind want to do away with "angst" in a dramatic show? Why why why why whyyyyyyyyy?

Now I'm all grumpy.

 

[Octavia]

^I can't explain it either. But her story ideas aside, one thing that I think Jeri Taylor did do well was to keep Janeway a relatively consistent character. After she left, we started getting multiple personalities, none of which were any fun.

Pity she couldn't have stayed on for characterisation, and left the plots to someone else.

 

[Karnbeln]

They were also supposed to adapt alien technologies to replace parts of the ship that were damaged. Instead, the ship ended up pristine in every episode in stock footage to save money. It's a missed opportunity really, as CGI was advancing enough to make something like that more realistic. As far as alien tech went, Neelix's kitchen and the Borg alcoves was about as far as it got.

That would be a neat change for the exterior of the ship if we were to ever get a VOY Remastered (not that I'm expecting it). They probably wouldn't want to mess with the filmed interiors, but they could slowly change the exterior as the seasons went on. Of course, since there would be no mention of it in the script, the visuals would be superfluous and a bandage where surgery is needed.

 

[Praetor]

^ Why would anybody in her right mind want to do away with "angst" in a dramatic show? Why why why why whyyyyyyyyy?

Now I'm all grumpy.

Yeah. Me too.

^I can't explain it either. But her story ideas aside, one thing that I think Jeri Taylor did do well was to keep Janeway a relatively consistent character. After she left, we started getting multiple personalities, none of which were any fun.

Pity she couldn't have stayed on for characterisation, and left the plots to someone else.

Agreed. The one thing I have always thought she had a good handle on was characterization, particularly with Janeway.

Of course, since there would be no mention of it in the script, the visuals would be superfluous and a bandage where surgery is needed.

So. True.

 

[nx1701g]

I would have preferred the rumored way Voyager would have progressed (When DS9 ended Voyager made its way home - to a Federation controlled by the Dominion), but I'm one of the few who likes Endgame.

That would have been good too though.