End of Season 5 weirdness

[doubleohfive]

I've done as close to that as I plan to knowing ahead of time what your objections will be based on what I've already read. Just to prove it let's take just one of the things you mentioned I've brought up before and I'll elaborate. If your reply doesn't contain something to the effect of "couldn't have been done," "would have been hated anyway," "wasn't allowable by the premise" or "was forbidden by UPN" I'll eat my words.

See, this is what I don't understand. You complain about how terrible the show was, yet when pressed to explain yourself, you'll only do so if we promise not to criticize your post? Are you for real?

Also, for the record -- I never, ever said "Your opinion is worthless because you're not a TV writer."

That was never the intention behind what I posted, that was never the message.

All I was saying was that it's foolish to think you know better without actually taking in to consideration everything that goes in to the writing of an episode. Which is exactly what you were doing when you got so defensive, Withers.

Now, since you'd rather harass me elsewhere I'm not going to bring this up after this. All I was saying was that my own perspective on writing, and how shows are written has changed since working in the industry, especially with regard to a show I was previously so vocal about disliking.

Not everything is an attack, you know.

 

[Anwar]

Then I'll give you the chance to do the same, I'll give you the re-write I did and you can tear it up whatever way YOU want.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=101620

 

[exodus]

Well, the whole "studious, obsessive academic" type thing combined with him being played by Wang would've made it seem like an asian geek stereotype, for starters.

Also, "grow up"? How, by having him swear off women? He wasn't exactly immature to begin with. What does "growing up" entail when the show never presented him as immature in the first place?

Maybe innocent & nieve would be a better discription.

Seeing as how Harry was a mama's boy, I think his growth should have been the discovery of things in the "real world" beyond his parents protection aren't what they told him it would be, would have made a interesting development for Harry. While Harry was teaching Tom to be more responsable, maybe Tom could have been showing Harry how to live by his wits.

 

[doubleohfive]

All that aside; you just proved my point. You want specifics so you can say why they can't be done, regardless of the topic when it comes to Voyager. That's why there isn't elaboration beyond what has already been donated (from me anyway.) The bullet points... just take less time to type.

-Withers-​

That's a rather circular logic I think.

Withers, I just read your comments above and while I agree with you to a certain degree about Harry Kim et al ... you asked for specific reasons why any of that couldn't be done.

Well, for starters, politics. As in, in-the-room politics. Maybe someone just plain didn't like the character. Maybe someone didn't like the actor. Who knows? But it does happen and it results in stories about other characters.

Secondly, you have to bear in mind that the show had several showrunners, whose voice the rest of the writing staff had to mimic in order to get stories to air. With different showrunners come different personalities and different writing sensibilities. If I were a showrunner on a series and were at some point replaced by you, I have no doubt there would be a marked difference between how we'd run a writers room and the kinds of stories that would be written. That's not an attack. Just a point of distinguishing our different styles and sensibilities as writers.

Thirdly, I would again ask that you dial back the hostility in your posts. This thread has been fun, but the hostility is dragging it down. You said yourself you enjoy the debate, let's keep it at that level - debate.

 

[Withers]

I have had enough of the lecture about "play nice" from you. You're the only one with a problem. You want to dial it back? How about you stop making mention of it every single post, eh? Focus on what is being rendered rather than who is doing the rendering.

you asked for specific reasons why any of that couldn't be done.

That was rhetorical and specifically with the person the entire post was designed to respond to- Anwar.

Finally, if you're going to reply to posts from me and want a response in the future, try not to chop them into thirds and reply to them out order. It makes this infinitely more difficult than it needs to be.

-Withers-​

 

[doubleohfive]

He started out as a novice ensign. Essentially a blank slate. He ended the exact same way. It's like saying an unbaked pie is good enough without being baked. If a character is so awesome it doesn't need to be developed at all then the story should be told from finish to start.

-Withers-​

That's not entirely true. Sure, Kim hadn't really changed much. He was still eager, still a little green (but I suspect that was intentional in order to a) make the other characters look more experienced and b) allow room for Paris' shenanigans) but there's a very pointed scene in 'Endgame' where the writers tried to show us -- however shoehorned it may have been (and I do feel like it was quite shoehorned) when Kim makes his big speech about wanting to go home but relegating that 'it's the journey, not the destination' that matters. One could argue that this is a sign of tremendous growth for a character who had, from the beginning wanted nothing more than to just get home.

 

[doubleohfive]

I have had enough of the lecture about "play nice" from you. You're the only one with a problem. You want to dial it back? How about you stop making mention of it every single post, eh? Focus on what is being rendered rather than who is doing the rendering.

you asked for specific reasons why any of that couldn't be done.

That was rhetorical and specifically with the person the entire post was designed to respond to- Anwar.

Finally, if you're going to reply to posts from me and want a response in the future, try not to chop them into thirds and reply to them out order. It makes this infinitely more difficult than it needs to be.

-Withers-​

I have no interest in being harassed by you there. Further, if it were just me asking you to quit with the nastiness, that would be one thing but the moderator of the forum has seen it as well.

How hard is it to just plain be nice? I mean, jeez...

 

[Withers]

One could argue that this is a sign of tremendous growth for a character who had, from the beginning wanted nothing more than to just get home.

For Voyager it was growth. That's the best they did in this regard (specifically Harry Kim and developing.) Rather than showing him grow up they gave him lines of dialogue to illustrate the point. Suddenly, in that moment in Endgame, his whole policy changes and that's what they have as evidence of character development. Earlier in the same episode he was so eager to get home he was willing to go into a "Borg infested nebula" to explore the remote possibility of getting home sooner. An immediate flip flop of the defining characteristic of Harry Kim (that he was eager to go home) isn't "development" as I see it.

Further, if it were just me asking you to quit with the nastiness, that would be one thing but the moderator of the forum has seen it as well.

It's you and a moderator who has disliked me based on my Voyager opinions since the moment I showed here versus 3 PM's that say effectively the opposite. So take it as you will but either way I have had enough of you lecturing me about my conduct. If you have a problem with it I told you who you can tell. Otherwise... can you please stop acting like my mother?

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

I have had enough of the lecture about "play nice" from you. You're the only one with a problem. You want to dial it back? How about you stop making mention of it every single post, eh? Focus on what is being rendered rather than who is doing the rendering.

you asked for specific reasons why any of that couldn't be done.

That was rhetorical and specifically with the person the entire post was designed to respond to- Anwar.

Finally, if you're going to reply to posts from me and want a response in the future, try not to chop them into thirds and reply to them out order. It makes this infinitely more difficult than it needs to be.

-Withers-​

I have no interest in being harassed by you there. Further, if it were just me asking you to quit with the nastiness, that would be one thing but the moderator of the forum has seen it as well.

How hard is it to just plain be nice? I mean, jeez...

I think you're seeing hostility where there is none.
It's simply his speech pattern.
He speaks "robustly" and sarcasm is a form of humor.
I think Withers has been trying to get that point across when he replies not to worry about how he says it but rather by what he says.

 

[doubleohfive]

exodus, I'm fairly certain you are aware my familiarity with sarcasm. I'm not criticizing Withers for being sarcastic. I'm criticizing the nasty tone of his recent posts which kimc also noted. That's all.

I'm fully aware of what Withers is saying, which is why I've replied to his talking points. How he says it is irksome, hence my repeated requests for him to consider his tone. If he doesn't want to do that, that's his choice.

Again, if it were just me seeing this, I'd probably concede the point. But others have noticed it as well. And yet it persists. That's fine and dandy but it puts a major damper on the discussion.

Again, that's all I was saying.

And Withers, I'm not acting like your mother. I'm simply asking you to consider how your posts are coming across. From where I'm sitting, they're biting and hostile and i make it very hard to discuss the talking points with you. There's nothing wrong with asking for that.

 

[doubleohfive]

post deleted

 

[exodus]

exodus, I'm fairly certain you are aware my familiarity with sarcasm. I'm not criticizing Withers for being sarcastic. I'm criticizing the nasty tone of his recent posts which kimc also noted. That's all.

I'm fully aware of what Withers is saying, which is why I've replied to his talking points. How he says it is irksome, hence my repeated requests for him to consider his tone. If he doesn't want to do that, that's his choice.

Again, if it were just me seeing this, I'd probably concede the point. But others have noticed it as well. And yet it persists. That's fine and dandy but it puts a major damper on the discussion.

Again, that's all I was saying.

And Withers, I'm not acting like your mother. I'm simply asking you to consider how your posts are coming across. From where I'm sitting, they're biting and hostile and i make it very hard to discuss the talking points with you. There's nothing wrong with asking for that.

I understand, I'm just saying I think it's best to over look it.

There are far more posters on this board with far worse attitudes and we disregard it.

I think it would be best if the same thing was done here or just end the conversation if you don't care for his tone just to make it comfortable for all.

I'm just saying.

 

[Withers]

For anybody who reads the last page or so of back and forth...

We settled it like grown ups. No need to continue on about it or close the thread; we have come to terms. Free love, peace, and all that jazz. I'm just gonna re-post the last thing I said of relevance and let this go from there.

For Voyager it was growth. That's the best they did in this regard (specifically Harry Kim and developing.) Rather than showing him grow up they gave him lines of dialogue to illustrate the point. Suddenly, in that moment in Endgame, his whole policy changes and that's what they have as evidence of character development. Earlier in the same episode he was so eager to get home he was willing to go into a "Borg infested nebula" to explore the remote possibility of getting home sooner. An immediate flip flop of the defining characteristic of Harry Kim (that he was eager to go home) isn't "development" as I see it.

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

^^That's cool.

I was about issue you guys Batleths and have you guys duke it out.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

^^That's cool.

I was about issue you guys Batleths and have you guys duke it out.

Ka'PlaH!